Stabbing vs. Cutting

**dwid** · Posted On: 6/11/2006 8:21pm

Originally Posted by TCDD

I seem to recall reading somewhere (in fact i think it was in the book blackhawk down) that the amour peircing bullets that the americans were firing were going straight through people and not killing them, just making neat litltle holes with no wound trauma unless they hit bones or organs...knives are the same

Actually, the point made in Blackhawk Down was that the tungsten tipped .223 rounds were so good at penetrating that, unlike the .308 that at least one guy chose to carry, they failed to dump sufficient kinetic energy in the target to knock the target down. So, it was hard to tell how many enemy combatants they were killing or incapacitating because even with a hit the guy might keep moving in the general direction he was going in and thus with all the alleys and **** would move into some kind of cover. A jacketed high velocity round like a .223 generates a shitload of wound trauma as it passes through the body. Even in fleshy parts, there is some kind of effect wherein the wound channel is substantially larger than the round itself.

As far as what this has to do with stabbing vs. cutting, I would be inclined to say not much, as it's apples to oranges comparing a high velocity projectile to a knife. I think something to consider is that most people who attack with knives are untrained and the stabbing motion is likely the most natural attacking motion with a knife, as it is similar to striking with a fist or any other object. Also, people who are stabbed are generally stabbed multiple times, increasing the likelihood of getting something vital through sheer statistical probability.

**groundcontrolba** · Posted On: 6/12/2006 2:55pm

first off a stab wound and a wound inflicted by a rifle round are way different brother. One difference would be hydrostatic shock.Just because you shoot someone and they dont fall right down and die does not mean they arent dead. Anyone who has shot either people or large game know that even a well placed shot doesnt always put them down on the spot. Adrenaline and momentum can be a bitch.

**TCDD** · Posted On: 6/12/2006 4:23pm

i thought the whole wound trauma malarky was caused by the bullet deforming/ spinning /fragmenting/shattering bones inside the target, rather than just passing through? (ie like an arrow)

surely if you fired a whatever type of bullet (little gun knowledge- some physics knowledge..) it would pass through soft tissue and as long as it didnt deform or hit bone, pass through the other side fairly neatly, much like the untwisted knife?

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 6/12/2006 4:34pm

I going to go with the Ex AirForce Special Forces guy (groundcontrolba) on this one.

**groundcontrolba** · Posted On: 6/12/2006 4:48pm

Hahahaha there was nothing special about me brother. I was in AFSOC but i was only a lowly aircraft mechanic with alot of funny stories.

**dwid** · Posted On: 6/12/2006 5:30pm

TCDD: Yeah, it's somewhat counterintuitive, but with a high velocity bullet, you're talking about something moving over 2,000 feet per second, so arrows are not really a useful comparison. The speed of the projectile relative to its diameter creates a sort of shockwave effect. See below...

A website with more information than you want to know about wound ballistics:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm#fbiwbs1993

Here is a chart that can give a visual sense of the effect of a high velocity round on soft tissue. The action of the high velocity round moving through creates a massive wound channel in its wake. This one in particular is a .223, which is the subject at hand with regard to the Blackhawk Down reference:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/imag...50gr%20JSP.jpg

**groundcontrolba** · Posted On: 6/12/2006 6:01pm

Exactly.Thats a good site.This part sums up what i was talking about with the well placed shot and the target not dying instantly

Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant.

This is dead and not knowing it yet.

**Jeice** · Posted On: 6/17/2006 11:11am

I remember an occaision at my dojo where someone came in to hang out and train, the topic of knife fighting came up and his experience in FMA, and then onto the tactics of slashing and stabbing in kobudo and FMA. Ended up with my instructor and him squaring off and sparring with wooden knives, my instructor blocked fma's first cut at the wrist (his blade on the fma's wrist) and then drove foreward and deliberately planted the point of his wooden knife on the base of his throat.

Whole thing took about 5 seconds, I don't give a **** about style vs style, but certainly showed me what to think about some aspects of cutting vs stabbing (I was there spectating, not "heard from some guy").