Small Circle Jujitsu - worth training for self defense?

**new2bjj** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 12:47am

Said thing is, there was a time when Wally Jay and that school were held in high esteem. The local judo coach out here, who coached some Olympian's, seemed to think highly of Wally, also. Well, now he's dead, and he can't defend himself. He may have been teaching Bullshido, but I doubt he was a BS artist. He never charged exorbitant prices, and his school was always run like a club, with no collection agency autopay crap. As far as I know, using those techniques are illegal in MM- oh that means that they would never work....

**Sophist** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 5:42am

Originally Posted by new2bjj

As far as I know, using those techniques are illegal in MM- oh that means that they would never work....

No. Wristlocks and standing armlocks and even throwing with a lock and all that "traditional" jujitsu bullshit is perfectly legal in MMA; "small joint manipulation" just covers finger and toe locks as far as I'm aware. And given how many grapplers have broken fingers and toes in the course of winning matches over the years, you'd be grasping at straws to claim that being able to use finger locks is going to make a big difference to a match between pro fighters.

The reason that stuff isn't seen in MMA isn't because it's forbidden. It's mostly because the techniques are stupid.

**new2bjj** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 9:48am

I don't think they check for stupidity in the UFC, or most of the guys that keep losing would not be allowed to comeback. That said, someone had me in a hold in a fight, and I broke their finger and Voila'- They let go! True story.
I'm all for MMA and the rest, but there has to be a way to pracrise the truly dirty **** once in awhile, even though the fight sport moves on the whole are much more effective.

**daigoro** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 10:08am

Wally screwed himself by associating with Dillman. As his son has continued the relationship, SCJJ gets crapped on by association with Dillman's BS.

**Ryno** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 10:11am

Small Circle places a heavy emphasis on small joint locks. They have their place, but I wouldn't rely on them in a self defense situation when a closed fist is hurtling toward your face.

SBG is obviously a good option. Team Quest would be another. http://www.tqfc.com/DesktopDefault.a...dex=6&tabid=31

One of the guys from the Jujutsu club just moved down to Vancouver, just north of Portland, and may be running a study group. He's a very good grappler.

**daigoro** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 10:35am

Originally Posted by Sophist

No. Wristlocks and standing armlocks and even throwing with a lock and all that "traditional" jujitsu bullshit is perfectly legal in MMA;

A common misconception, but wrsitlocks are de facto illegal in MMA because grabbing the gloves of an opponent is a foul. Megumi Yabushita from Smack Girl is a known dirty fighter who grabs the gloves. Her fight against Shannon Hooper is a good example.

http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.

correction: Pride FC doesnt have a rule against grabbing the gloves

**Goldust** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 12:29pm

You are allowed to grab the wrists or hands of your opponent for control. What's illegal is interlacing your fingers inside the wristband or the webbing on the palms/fingers of the gloves. Due to the gloves grabbing the hands is almost impossible unless you have Giant Silva size hands. Grabbing the wrists is more common but unless you have large hands and a strong grip like Semmy Schilt or Nogueira it isn't generally practical. At least that has been the interpretation of the "no grabbing the gloves " rule at the shows that I have fought in or otherwise been involed with.

As far as I know wrist locks, in most shows, are legal you just don't see them because they are low percentage and not many people are very good at them. About the only time you can realistically go for them is when your opponent is defending an arm lock (that's about the only time that I've ever secured one).

**Matt Bernius** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 1:19pm

Originally Posted by Sophist

SBG is also responsible for the STAB (Survival Tactics Against Blade) knife defence program, which is one of the few knife defence courses that is trained against fully resisting opponents.

Really? I thought Tanswell developed STAB on his own prior to his involvement with SBGi.

- Matt

**Goldust** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 2:19pm

Regarding Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu there is one located somewhere in Arizona and occasionally they have students enter the local grappling competitions. Predictably I haven’t seen them fare very well. At one tournament that I went to I saw one of their brown belts get tapped out by a fairly average looking BJJ white belt.

**bshovan** · Posted On: 5/31/2006 9:16pm

My first encounter with Prof. Jay was app. 20 years ago when I attended one of his seminars. No idea about his background at the time, he asked me about my training. I told him my first instructor in the MA was at my high school in Ju-Jutsu with Sensei Ramon " Lolo " Ancho. Prof. Jay told me that he and Sensei Ancho had roots way back to Hawaii in the Okazaki system. Prof. Jay then used me for the majority of the seminar as his Uki, a proud moment in my life.
At the time, being a martial artist who questioned anything I felt needed questioning, and after a countless number of joint locking experiences from him, I asked him, " what happens if I really resisted and started to apply counter movements and atemi against his waza to me?" All I can say is that it was a lesson learned quickly.
Make no doubt about it, whatever perceptions of his true Martial Arts capabilities and knowledge the public has of Prof. Jay, in reality, he is a true Master to those that know.

Bill