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View Poll Results: Do I live in a Twilight Zone-esqe nightmare world?

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  • No. I agree Royce is a terribly overrated fighter and this nutriding is getting tiresome.

    41 70.69%
  • Yes. Blah blah blah heavier opponents, something something Dan Severn.

    17 29.31%
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  1. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 2:58pm


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If we sift through all your "you don't know ****" comments, an interesting argument emerges:

    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    Matt won via textbook bjj. As Helio supposedly said once "If you want to impress me, beat me with out using jiujitsu".
    All of what you've described has been going on for years.

    By the way I got Stephan Kesting's email yesterday. Here was his comment on the hughes-gracie fight.

    For many that was our first exposure to what real fighting probably looks like. Even if he had picked fights and this is his only legit fight except for Sakuraba, it was sweet to see him back in the cage.
    So I said something to the effect that "wow, this makes it official, Kickboxing has been fully integerated into MMA, it's not just a pure BJJ contest any more."

    And you said something to the effect that "no, it's still all BJJ, and here's a quote to prove it."

    Last time I saw Gracie fight, his stand up game was leading with his right foot forward, his hands barely up, and his leg-kicks were thrusting/snapping front kick type things, and he basically didn't throw any high kicks. This time he looked like a number of Muay Thai fighters I've seen, throwing his fair share of round kicks, keeping his hands up better, leading with his left foot instead of his right foot, and even threw a high kick or two. Royce's integration of Muay Thai quite proves the point I was trying to get at (since he has appended his BJJ with non BJJ stand up striking,) even if he HAD won.


    My main source for how I thought the fight was going to end up was the pre-fight interviews of both fighters, which had been in circulation by way of an official UFC website days before UFC 60. Matt made it pretty clear he was planning to keep this fight standing up as much as possible, which led me two my two concerns (A: Gracie's been training stand up, and B: people who lose to him usually underestimate how good he is at taking the fight to the ground. Furthermore, Gracie gave no clue that he might personally have any stand up game plan at all, even though it's rumored that he's been working on his striking for a long time - in fact he specifically mentioned he intended to win by submission.) I guess I shouldn't follow the hype.

    Matt also stated in his interview that this fight was very much about weather or not "BJJ was the only martial art you need to study to succeed in MMA." I concluded he was right considering his victory and Gracie's use of kickboxing techniques previously absent from his BJJ technique.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 5/30/2006 3:02pm at .
  2. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 3:22pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BFGalbraith
    So I said something to the effect that "wow, this makes it official, Kickboxing has been fully integerated into MMA, it's not just a pure BJJ contest any more."
    How does a fight with little standup have anything to do with MT and MMA from 6 years ago?
    And you said something to the effect that "no, it's still all BJJ, and here's a quote to prove it."
    You are stupid. Matt's win was textbook bjj. What does that have to do with mma as a whole?

    Last time I saw Gracie fight, his stand up game was leading with his right foot forward, his hands barely up, and his leg-kicks were thrusting/snapping front kick type things, and he basically didn't throw any high kicks. This time he looked like a number of Muay Thai fighters I've seen, throwing his fair share of round kicks, keeping his hands up better, leading with his left foot instead of his right foot, and even threw a high kick or two. Royce's integration of Muay Thai quite proves the point I was trying to get at (since he has appended his BJJ with non BJJ stand up striking,) even if he HAD won.
    a)against his opponents in the early UFCs he didn't need to worry about his striking. Doesn't mean he didn't have an understanding of standup.
    b)All the gracies have been working their standup for decades. It is no secret or rumor. You're just ignorant.

    Matt also stated in his interview that this fight was very much about weather or not "BJJ was the only martial art you need to study to succeed in MMA." I concluded he was right considering his victory and Gracie's use of kickboxing techniques previously absent from his BJJ technique.
    Do you really think Matt wrote those comments?
    And Jesus, Royce said in many of the interviews that you needed a more complete game than you did in the early UFC's.
    Last edited by UpaLumpa; 5/30/2006 3:27pm at .
  3. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 4:24pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tell us about the Gracie approach to striking.
  4. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 4:52pm


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    a)against his opponents in the early UFCs he didn't need to worry about his striking. Doesn't mean he didn't have an understanding of standup.
    b)All the gracies have been working their standup for decades. It is no secret or rumor. You're just ignorant.

    Do you really think Matt wrote those comments?
    And Jesus, Royce said in many of the interviews that you needed a more complete game than you did in the early UFC's.
    WTF? I just explained in great detail the improvement I noticed in Gracie's stand up game. Your taking my comments pretty personally.

    The worst part about your BJJ nutriding arguments are the parts where you say "everyone knew Gracie was going to lose, even Gracie" or "Matt was just reading off a script, he doens't voice his true BJJ secrets in public." You are basically fantasizing about what you wish these people were really thinking, instead of taking what they said on camera at face value.

    Though the techniques I referenced have been going on in MMA now for several years, Gracie's participation in UFC 60 is a historical milestone in the evolution of MMA - because he was utterly defeated by an advocate of cross-training as opposed to an advocate of just one system (in spite of TKD-ish claims that "all grappling is BJJ") - and because Gracie demonstrated significant adaptation to techniques not natively demonstrated in his martial arts system. The rest of the matches highlighting the innovations that have taken place over the last several years that I'm refering to are just iceing on the cake.
    Last edited by BFGalbraith; 5/30/2006 5:00pm at .
  5. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 5:56pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are truly an idiot Royce said before and after the fight, has said in books, on video, other members of his family etc. have all repeatedly advocated cross-training for MMA.
    And yet you (who has missed the last 30-40 ufcs) somehow think this is a milestone demonstrating the need for crosstraining? What about when Genki pounded Royler's face through the mat? What about when Lindland subbed a bjj blackbelt? What about all the pure grapplers that have gotten destroyed by cross trained athletes?
    This fight is only remarkable to the people (like you) who are ignorant of MMA.

    And I'm curious how my saying any of this is bjj nutriding as opposed to just pointing out your ignorance.
  6. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 5:57pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And not all grappling is bjj. What Matt demonstrated is clearly bjj derived though. Hell read any catch thread elsewhere.
    Position is stressed in the manner demonstrated almost wholly in bjj.

    And as for "Matt was just reading off a script, he doens't voice his true BJJ secrets in public." Matt trains under a bjj blackbelt. I'm sure he thinks bjj is crap.
    http://www.bjj.org/a/people/miletich-pat.html

    Why am I even participating in this argument when you're clearly ignorant and I don't really care for Royce (because he's been ducking legitimate competition for years).?
    Last edited by UpaLumpa; 5/30/2006 6:04pm at .
  7. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 5:59pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey
    Tell us about the Gracie approach to striking.
    In practice it appears to be to strike with minimal power.
  8. Bang! is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 6:16pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually, I love the Royce-style heel kicks from guard or back mount. Full credit for that. Unfortunately, everything else plays out in my mind like the Sakuraba fight caught in an endless loop.
  9. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2006 11:01am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Royce posted over on the UG apologizing to the fans for the fight and that he wasn't prepared, saying he will prepare better for his next fight. Somebody posted a quote from Rickson who is training in Brazil about the fight and reportedly he said "Royce didn't know the rules", which I interpreted to mean Royce hadn't sufficiently prepared for the aggressiveness necessaary for the 3 5 minute round format. That may be BS, or somewhat true, I don't know. Hughes even said in the post fight interview that Royce probably wasn't as familiar with the fight format, or something like that.

    To me, Royce's style has always been more endurance based, and a really good guard (remember Severn - taken down and dominated for 15 min. straight, then sinks a triangle from guard). Even in BJJ, he has never had the kind of game like a Jacare or JJ Machado of pushing the pace. This is personal fighting style, not assessment of BJJ. He fights more endure through an opponent tiring, then submitting. His losses in Pride are mostly a more aggressive opponent doesn't tire before ending the fight.

    Even if we're talking modern BJJ, some Gracie camps including Royce's aren't known recently for pushing the pace in new technique (except supposedly Rickson can still tool most anyone with basics, and Renzo camps seem to be an exception).

    I don't think Royce's fighting style matches up well with the current UFC format. Now with all that said, I don't think a different format would have produced a different outcome - Hughes still would have tooled him with no time limits. To me, Hughes wasn't a classic BJJ win. It was a modern MMA win, and probably exactly what it was billed to be as a passing of the torch in MMA. His moves into side mount to me looked more like NCAA Div I wrestling based and taking full advantage of his strength and explosiveness. The armbar/kimura attempt was BJJ based, and his work into back mount and controlling back mount is definitely classic BJJ - probably Jeremy Horn influence. Div I wrestlers with good BJJ skills are pretty damn tough - most collegiate wrestlers I've known have rolled 1 - 2 belts up in technique level in BJJ, and can advance quicker.

    I think most of the Gracie nutriders are teenagers or inexperienced BJJ players. People who have competed at GC or NAGA don't really have that outlook.

    And I haven't seen X-Men 3 yet because there are still too many slobbering teenage idiots camping out in lines for tickets still. So **** all of you AND your spoilers. I hope Wolverine dies, comes back to life, appears to you in your dreams, rapes you and chokes you out with Royce's black belt. And you wake up with a sore neck and an expanded sphincter.
  10. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/31/2006 1:21pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The rules argument is stupid, even if it is straight from the lips of Royce or his holiness Helio. If the fight had gone to deciscion or if a round break resulted in Matt getting out of a submissions, maybe. As it was, not at all.

    Also, with the major exception of Gracie-Shamrock 2, most of Royce's early fights lasted less than 5 minutes. Where is the need for endurance again?
    Hell even the supposed Kimo battle (which was wholly one-sided) was less than 5 minutes.
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