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  1. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 4:23pm


     Style: Tai Chi, Jujitsu, knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Has Judo defined Martial Arts as we know it?

    Because Judo got formalized as an effective system and sport so early on in modern martial arts history, I wonder: how much has Judo effected how other sytems have defined themselves? Possible examples:
    -In TKD I've some interesting stand-up grappling they never actually spar with: it seems like the TKD sparring rules were in some way trying to offer something not already available in Olympic Judo - sort of a justification-for-existance.
    -The same could be said of kickboxing rules for example (we aren't Judo, so only Muay Thai throws allowed, because we are trying to kick and punch here.) If Judo hadn't been formalized first, I bet there would be much more throws tolerated in the "sabaki challenge" (which in turn exclude some of the clinching from the older sport of Muay Thai.)
    -Even BJJ guys sometimes define themselves by explaining the differences between their system and Judo.
    -How many local grappling styles got assimilated into local Judo clubs (as Judo was the basic international "submission wresting" sport)?
    -Any martial art that has a colorful ranking-system is at least indirectly comparing itself to Judo, since that originated with Judo (including many a CMA.)
    -Judo has been around as an international competition for a very long time, making it a gold-standard by which to evaluate other martial art systems.
  2. BoardHitBack is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 5:11pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just from the POV of grading structures alone, judo has defined a hell of a lot of ma. The belt system has been adopted by all modern japanese arts and bled thru into their various korean american haiwaian and brazillian offspring, and a lot of CMA have adopted the whole "sash" (what? its different to how the japanese do it, okay!) system since.

    Along with this comes in the idea of a definitive, standardised level of both knowledge and profiency required for each progression. You could go into any judo school with your nice belt and the instructor would have an extremely good idea as to what you were capable of as a student. This broke down the traditional reliance* on your master- you could train at any judo school you wanted, and find the same cirriculum and be at the same place in your training. It made instructors lives easier too- a student from within the judo could move to their new area, walk into your club with their nice gi and nice belt- and you know what? You pretty much know what he has learned already and what you can expect from him without having to watch him train for a couple of months and keep asking does he know this technique, do you know what I'm talking about etc..Its simple and its genius. No wonder its been implemented in most other widespread systems- its brilliant and its proven to be the easiest way to train people on a mass scale in societies where people have more freedom of movement.

    This helped pave the way for expansion out of japan as well. As you point out judo has been an international competition for a long time now. This is because judo has been a standardised system for a long time- and become as ubiquitous as the dollar.


    But then is the matter of wrestling and boxing where your record is the important thang...:hello:
    He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it- Nietzsche

    I like my Te like I like my tea- from Fujian province and without any bullshit in it. Oh, and green. And scented with jasmine blossoms...

    Quote Originally Posted by A Better American Than You
    In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.
  3. Zakohaki is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 5:42pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think this standardization is one of the things that brought me back into judo after a long absence. I like the fact that it's techniques are straight to the point and belts levels aren't all over the place. It may not look cool or have many movies to its credit, but damn if it isn't fun.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 6:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo was THE MA for almost half a century.

    It gave alot to the MA world:

    -The DOGI. The GI was NOT a standard part of MA training. Koryu arts trained in Kimono. Kano formalized a training uniform and it was later adopted by Funakoshi for his Shotokan. The rest is history.

    -The Kyu/Dan system. The colored belts, as mentioned, has been adopted by almost every MA, but its the Kyu/Dan system of grading is what really changed the Japanese community.

    -Training. Judo revived what alot of MA were NOT doing at the time. They started "Alive" training in Japan.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. BoardHitBack is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 7:01pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    -The DOGI. The GI was NOT a standard part of MA training. Koryu arts trained in Kimono. Kano formalized a training uniform and it was later adopted by Funakoshi for his Shotokan. The rest is history.
    That I did not know. I knew this thread would be cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    -The Kyu/Dan system. The colored belts, as mentioned, has been adopted by almost every MA, but its the Kyu/Dan system of grading is what really changed the Japanese community.
    Could you expand on that, Asia? It seems like there is a whole lot more to tell.
    He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it- Nietzsche

    I like my Te like I like my tea- from Fujian province and without any bullshit in it. Oh, and green. And scented with jasmine blossoms...

    Quote Originally Posted by A Better American Than You
    In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.
  6. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 7:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Prior to the Kyu/Dan grade system you had traditional rankings which were not really structured. You had Shoden, Chuden, Okuden, and finally Menkyo Kaiden which was a teaching liscence. The teachings varied from school to school, or form branch to branch in the same school. The Kyu/Dan grades was structured and you had requirements for each promotion, your performance played a big factor in it.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 7:49pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo has had a lot of influence on other martial arts, but not nearly enough, seeing as most TMA are absolute suckfests.
  8. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 9:14pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo isn't a "TMA." In fact it is the very definition and framer for what "Modern Martial Arts" would be, both in its inception by Kano and its development towards becoming mainly definable as a sports form.
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 9:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well Judo is only considered a TMA in the US. In Japan it is called a GENDAI, or Modern, MA.

    The term TMA is really not well defined. As I said many times Aikido, Karate, and TKD are considered TMA, but again in Japan they are Gendai Budo. BJJ is older than Aikido, TKD, and most of the forms of Karate practiced today but its not considered a TMA.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2006 10:16pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Well Judo is only considered a TMA in the US. In Japan it is called a GENDAI, or Modern, MA.

    The term TMA is really not well defined. As I said many times Aikido, Karate, and TKD are considered TMA, but again in Japan they are Gendai Budo. BJJ is older than Aikido, TKD, and most of the forms of Karate practiced today but its not considered a TMA.
    Yeah, I've been kind of perplexed by the usage of "TMA" by Americans, though I understand how it came about.

    Just about none of the arts considered "TMA" are traditional and few of them claim to be in any way, at least among Japanese/Okinawan Martial Arts. Things get a little fuzzier among Chinese Arts, but even then most of those arts point towads recent codifiers/redactors as holding the major influence over how their arts are practiced today. Korean arts seem too mind bogglingly weird when they turn towards their history to really be taken seriously, though I'd love to have someone school me on that scene's history.

    I sometimes get the sense that if an art originates in an Asian country, retains some of the cultural character of the place it is from and wears fancy pajamas it is considered "TMA" by default.
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