Posted On:6/04/2006 10:44am
Style: judo, boxing, BJJ
:icon_pira Kungfooless, you are right on a couple of points. First, very few experienced knife fighters (a dubious honor) will ever let you know they have the knife so you are really screwed if you find yourself up against someone who has say done “hard” time. Second, whatever you do, avoid arts like systema, they are Bullshido at its finest. As for Krav, well, the jury is out on that one, some here hate it others swear by it, I fall in between. I think they have some solid techniques while other stuff is useless as roller-skates on a gravel driveway. Kali large depends on who is teaching it as to how much you get out of it, but I think the knife sparring drills with the patty cake would probably get you killed in prison (never been by I figure it is a solid proving ground for knife fighting).
As to the idea of any best system for handling a knife, there is not a single art or instructor that can make that claim, though many will try.
I restore the Balance
Posted On:6/04/2006 12:14pm
Style: I wear pants
Originally Posted by kipdynamite
:icon_pira Kungfooless, you are right on a couple of points. First, very few experienced knife fighters (a dubious honor) will ever let you know they have the knife so you are really screwed if you find yourself up against someone who has say done “hard” time.
That's part of the problem with the notion of "expect to be cut," you can't expect anything if you aren't aware the guys got a knife to begin with. This is why principles that apply universally are so crucial. Meaning, whether or not the opponent has a knife or not, your fighting tactics do not change. Now, if there's anybody out there that doubts what I'm stating here as a fact of life, consider if you will Rickson Gracie precepts. For Rickson it doesn't matter one iota what system or art he's going up against, his universal concepts apply equally against any threat and are effective within a sporting venue. If you want to test to see if your system has principles that are universal and apply under any threat, attack your workout partner when he is not aware you have a knife and is under the assumption you are coming at him unarmed.
Second, whatever you do, avoid arts like systema, they are Bullshido at its finest.
You'd never know it by the staunch support they bring here to this forum. They believe by being members here, it shields them from skepticism. Do a search on RobG and DdlR and systema.
As for Krav, well, the jury is out on that one, some here hate it others swear by it, I fall in between. I think they have some solid techniques while other stuff is useless as roller-skates on a gravel driveway.
I know for a fact their firearm disarmament protocols are flawed. Here's an excerpt from an article I wrote->
(John Whitman discusses that once you have disarmed the attacker stripping him of his firearm, the defender should retreat and withdrawal)
Whitman- "Your retreat is vital. Among the most common mistakes made in gun defense training is taking the weapon but remaining in close proximity to the gunman. Once the weapon is yours, create distance between yourself and the attacker."
Never do this if your intent is to survive a lethal confrontation. For starters, the gun could be unloaded or a round's not chambered. The gun may even be incapable of firing because of the manner in which you manipulated the firearm. Krav maga advocates grabbing the pistol itself, to quote Mr. Whitman,
"Not only will the slide not pinch you, but the defense you use will most likely keep the slide from operating, thus preventing a new round from cycling into the chamber."
There's a problem with this folks, by preventing the mechanism of the firearm from cycling properly, what do you suppose can now occur? Yes, that's right, the gun may jam. You could end up with a stove pipe (a casing trapped in the slide after the bullet discharged) or worse a 'double feed' (A class 3 malfunction- where a bullet casing has not cleared with a fresh round pushing up behind it). This is not good when your life can be decided within a matter of a second or less. I can almost assure you that you'll never clear a class 3 malfunction in that amount of time, especially under stress. It's never going to happen.
Gentlemen, when grappling a firearm may result in a serious malfunction which you may not be aware of, what exactly is the point of stripping the weapon from an attacker and then backing away before you've subdued him? Truthfully folks, don't grapple with a firearm you intend on using. It makes absolutely no sense to have this suicidal methodology.
Perhaps, you doubt me? Well, let’s just see how accurate and on the money my assessment is shall we. Here is a response by John Whitman himself on in a 'Handgun disarming concerns - ejection port' thread explaining to a krav maga mite what occurs when their “gun defenses” techniques are utilized and I quote,
“This question is often asked. The technique has been used in real life and has been tested many times in live fire practice (with optimal conditions for safety reasons). Neither the slide nor the brass cause injury to the defender. The most common result is that the weapon jams.”
john whitman 9:54 am on 2.4.2003
Allow me to reiterate that fact folks straight from the horses mouth,
"THE MOST COMMON RESULT IS THAT THE WEAPON JAMS."
You have to ask yourselves -the krav maga idiots out there- what exactly the point of disarming an attacker then backing away with a jammed and nonfunctioning firearm before you’ve gained control over the situation and subdued the threat? Is this truly “practical defense” as you retards love telling the world?
A worst case scenario- As you backed away, assured with the knowledge that you now are in possession of the weapon, the attacker knows the guns unloaded, or worse, he's got a backup gun you never knew he had. Now, you're dead from a empty or malfunctioning pistol and because you were stupid. This is the problem with amateurs and their fixation with the weapons during the course of a confrontation. If you take the attacker out with your body weapons, you don't have to worry about his gun, you won't have to concern yourself ever with retaliation. Stay there and dominate that man, the key to a successful firearm disarmament will always be by maintaining that close proximity, you will have greater control over the Field of Fire and the ability to take that man out.
Sadly, there is a more disturbing aspect to this faulty methodology. It clearly demonstrates krav maga practitioners are unable to control their attackers much less finish them off. This Truth is undeniable. -->
Whitman- "However, sound tactics must at least include the possibility of using the weapon if you believe your life is still in danger. If the gunman charges after you once you've taken his weapon, the assault clearly is not over."
(Head thuds against the floor) Well, DUH! Mr. Whitman, you lost control of the situation by allowing the attacker to recover. Are you really this feebleminded that I have to spell this out to you? Christ Almighty. It's enough to make you question whether or not if some of these guys are truly brain dead or just inbreeds.
Oh by the way John, what good is that firearm going to be against a charging attacker if it's jammed?
Posted by spunky 8:02 am on 2.18.2003 at the Gun Seminar - Sacramento thread-
“Well, last night we had a seminar with Ernie Kirk and John Whitman teaching gun “take-away’s.” They covered just 2 with the combatives as well, and it was great! Just covering the 2 in the 2+ hours we had was the way to do it.”
Folks, this is almost enough to make you cry. It does not take 2-hours to learn 2-sets of disarmament movements. That is just asinine. What is this, disarmament seminars for the martial arts Special Ed? 5-minutes at the most is all that is required to master a series of firearm disarmament movements and not a second longer. I’m being extremely generous in that regard. When I instruct others, I can easily go through a dozen of firearm disarmament movements (none of which are identical) and principles within a 15-minute period. The cause for this inexcusable time differential between the krav maga stooges and myself is clear.
First, the emphasis of rote and repetitive training by the Mcdojoer’s, repeating fighting sequences ad nauseum is not only fundamentally incorrect, but turns you into an unthinking robot as well. Second, the doling out of information to string potential customers along in the hopes of signing them up and entering into krav maga’s Mcdojo contracts is morally reprehensible. Remember, while the krav maga sycophants proudly boast the fact that they can “defend” themselves against a weapon -such as a knife- what they will not tell you is that the Mcdojo instructors won’t allow the teachings of any information on actual weapon usage until the student has literally divested years of his life (not to mention monetary assets) into the program. That is patently dishonest. It does not take years to learn how to utilize an edged weapon effectively. While this may apply to the handling of a samurai sword, but a knife, no way. There is really is no way to justify this farce.
In closing, krav maga is a fine reality-based program for yuppie-types and Hollywood celebrities that want to give the illusion of toughness, but when it comes down to thoroughly researching and analyzing the available facts, krav maga falls well short of its intended goal and perpetrates a fraud by pretending to be a viable system when it clearly is not.
Remember, I did not make any of this up, these words come straight from Mr. Whitman who has only himself to blame.
Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
"I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"
Posted On:6/04/2006 4:13pm
Style: Ving Tsun
Originally Posted by Kungfoolss
That's part of the problem with the notion of "expect to be cut," you can't expect anything if you aren't aware the guys got a knife to begin with.
Of course, you're probably fucked because you won't know it's there, but there are people out there who *do* want you to see the knife/weapon as a way of them displaying their dominance. It's kinda like if someone wants you dead, they'll just shoot you in the back of the skull when you're not looking. I still think the whole "expect to be cut" thing in those situations is important on just a couple of levels.
#1: If you know it's there you shouldn't **** with the guy unless you have no other choice (as in, is it worth getting cut? If not, don't do it).
#2: Don't freak out if you do get cut. Handle the situation before disengaging or it'll get even worse.
Destroy this logic if I'm an idiot though, as you know lots more about it than me,
Posted On:6/04/2006 4:45pm
Style: Muay Thai & "t3h gr4ppl3"
Originally Posted by selfcritical
Crafty dog of the dog brothers is just about to release his program on knife defense, and i'd like to see how it works out as well.
I just preordered my copy today. I don't think you can really go wrong with the dog brothers. The reason I ordered it was because in the promo video on The Dog Brothers' Web site crafty was showing a technique called the dog catcher that works the same against an armed or unarmed attack. Even though they blur out exactly what he does in the promo clip, crafty and others are shown dealing with the attack and counter-attacking with live resistance.
This appealed to me because I have the Red Zone videos and even though I like them and highly reccomend them, there were a few things I didn't like. For instance, they treat an out of nowhere high line attack...with or without the knife...the same by covering up like a boxer. Crafty OTOH, in the promo clip shows what can happen if you do this against a knife attack, which is a potentially lethal stab right under the raised up arms and into the side of the body.
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