232541 Bullies, 4403 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 21 to 30 of 34
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 123 4 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    austin, tx
    Posts
    2,428

    Posted On:
    6/02/2006 1:35pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    Taking both krav and kali right now, I'm not super impressed with the Krav basic knife defenses at all.

    Krav first knife defense

    Vs low_line stab

    Put arm down to block while maintaining 90 degree angle, throw hips all the way back to move target back

    Kali knife defense vs low-line stab

    outside of lead forearm guides from the outside of the knife arm while executing a side step or forward movement at 45 degrees, secondary hand guides and controls the elbow, which serves as an entry for

    a) drawing a knife from hip holster and stabbing back
    b) closing to clinch, using the elbow as first reference point.
    c) using the space you just created by moving to his outside to takeoff and run past him

    one of these defenses doesn't leave you completely fucked if the feeder decided to double up on his attack.
  2. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Sunny Hawaii
    Posts
    4,972

    Posted On:
    6/02/2006 2:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kipdynamite
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3&q=paul+vunak
    I am being serious so flame if you must but listen to what I have to say, please. I was a paramedic for several years (Nationally registered emt p) and I have worked as a bouncer and the info Paul Vunak is pushing in his knife vids at least from what I saw on google video is totally bogus. I take exception with one point in particular; Vunak says ‘you will not go into “ instant SHOCK”’ (I think he means shack brought on by volume depletion, but who the hell knows) in fact most of the major arteries of the arm are on the inner part (I won’t bore you with medical terms) and he shows the cut being made to the back arm. If you do not believe me find the textbook prehospital trauma life support, statistically you have an 85% chance of surviving a knife wound. This data is compiled from trauma centers and VICAP (FBI). Vunak is selling fear tactics and it is not even sound self-defense, hell my granddad, God rest his soul, was a Marine in WWII and would have fed this guy his own knife while he carved him up with another.
    I know there are plenty of people who have slammed Vunak already on this site but I just want people to be armed with the knowledge that surviving a knife is possible. Don’t let a side of beef sell you some of his crappy tapes.
    My workout partner was stabbed in the stomach by a US Marine and almost bled to death. He walked himself over to a police station and the showed the female officer at the counter his wound and bloody hands, she freaked.

    Obviously, he survived and has learned since that incident. His governing principle (as my own) runs counter to the conventional wisdom out there, 'that you should expect to be cut in a knife fight.' If you expect to be cut, then you're doing something wrong. His mistake was trying to defend himself from a smaller man, taking the first punch and then retaliate. He never saw the knife until he felt it stab into him.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  3. FHoppy is offline
    FHoppy's Avatar

    Sardonic or Sarcastic?

    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    1,060

    Posted On:
    6/02/2006 3:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: Filipino Kun Tao, Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ex_jungyae
    From the little bit I have seen of them, their great... if you don't mind dieing.
    1up! 1up!
    Quote Originally Posted by Canuckyokushin
    I would so do Buttsecks.
  4. kipdynamite is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    somewhere you aren't
    Posts
    353

    Posted On:
    6/02/2006 9:34pm


     Style: judo, boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kungfooless, I agree.

    But that was not my arguement. Your friend got a gut wound which is potential fatal while Vunak is talking about a knife wound to the non vascular side of the forearm, rarely fatal. But, I agree with your principal expecting to get cut is kind of foolish. Certainly, you should prepare yourself for being cut (ie know advanced first aid like combat life saver or a 1st responder) but don't "expect" to get cut.
    I agree a empty hand against a knife is a **** proposition but it can be survived if you use some common sense and go on the offensive. And what I mean by that is the second he or she starts swing a blade you better make every shot count regardless of your style or what BS a person has been taught.
    I speaking from experience and I'll be honest both times training went right out the damn window and survival instinct took over. I don't think there are too many effective ways to train for this situation, if anyone has any thoughts feel free to chime in. But, I stand by my original assertion Paul Vunak is full of BullShido. :XXfridge:
  5. tellner is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Orygun
    Posts
    151

    Posted On:
    6/02/2006 9:53pm


     Style: Silat

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If knives or guns are part of your life here are three friends:

    1) Quiklot
    2) Compressed Gauze - not the regular gauze, but the really highly compressed stuff that packs about a mile into 2 cubic inches
    3) A one-handed tourniquet
  6. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Sunny Hawaii
    Posts
    4,972

    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 7:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kipdynamite
    But that was not my arguement. Your friend got a gut wound which is potential fatal while Vunak is talking about a knife wound to the non vascular side of the forearm, rarely fatal. But, I agree with your principal expecting to get cut is kind of foolish. Certainly, you should prepare yourself for being cut (ie know advanced first aid like combat life saver or a 1st responder) but don't "expect" to get cut.
    I agree a empty hand against a knife is a **** proposition but it can be survived if you use some common sense and go on the offensive. And what I mean by that is the second he or she starts swing a blade you better make every shot count regardless of your style or what BS a person has been taught.
    I speaking from experience and I'll be honest both times training went right out the damn window and survival instinct took over. I don't think there are too many effective ways to train for this situation, if anyone has any thoughts feel free to chime in. But, I stand by my original assertion Paul Vunak is full of BullShido. :XXfridge:
    I can see your point. The thing about my training partner, after he got stabbed he flew into a rage and his two attackers fled. They were later arrested and sentenced.

    A smart knife fighter will never let you know - if they can conceal it - they have a knife, it's the idiot that brandishes it openly as if they're in a fencing match who doesn't have a clue of what they're doing.

    Last edited by Kungfoolss; 6/03/2006 7:09am at .
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  7. enhanced is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    83

    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 8:54pm


     Style: BJJ @ OAMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is there any such thing as a system of knife defense that is proven and you people agree on?
    It seems like the one comon thing that all martial arts people can agree on is that none us you agree on very much.

    When it comes down to it, even if you are trained in a quality MA, is'nt it really up to individual to perform?

    Kali, Arnis and Escrima are weapons systems and I'm sure there are some people who would argue against their effetivness.

    And I thought that Krav Maga was battle tested. Is'nt it? That's kind of hard to argue with if all those Israelies have been using it to save themselves all these years.
    Who who is a detractor of Krav Maga has been attacked with a knife?
  8. selfcritical is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    austin, tx
    Posts
    2,428

    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 11:29pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by enhanced
    Is there any such thing as a system of knife defense that is proven and you people agree on?
    It seems like the one comon thing that all martial arts people can agree on is that none us you agree on very much.

    When it comes down to it, even if you are trained in a quality MA, is'nt it really up to individual to perform?

    Kali, Arnis and Escrima are weapons systems and I'm sure there are some people who would argue against their effetivness.

    And I thought that Krav Maga was battle tested. Is'nt it? That's kind of hard to argue with if all those Israelies have been using it to save themselves all these years.
    Who who is a detractor of Krav Maga has been attacked with a knife?

    Krav has some fairly good battle testing, but only a moderate amount of the relevant sample group is getting people trying to stab them, and of those only a small portion are really giving feedback to a central organization that can affect the curriculum that will appear in the typical Level one class. Knife drilling only appears implictly(the knife defense that you learn is only rarely refered to as a knife defense, and is done without knives). You do not drill this defense with any real resistance{in the drill the feeder is encouraged to hit very hard, but not to get around the defense}.

    Of course, the defenses vary wildly between the levels, but seeeeeem to be more coordinated inside block/centerline punch thingies.

    STAB and Red Zone programs only have moderate street testing but are praticed with high levels of resistance from day one, so I think we can draw some reasonable conclusions about how it works out.

    Pekiti Tirsia Kali is the HTH system that was adopted by the phillipine Force Recon marines in response to rapidly rising mortality rates from bladed assaults(Moro insurgents love their swords, and in close quarters combat in high grass, guns simply weren't coming into play nearly enough). It has seen a large reduction in blade-caused mortality, and is now spreading to mandatory training for all levels of the phillipine marines and police special-response units. Pretty much no one is getting stabbed at as much as these marines, but a large body of the techniques center on parts that might not be useful to civilians, such as creating the space to bring a gun or machete into play, as opposed to focusing entirely on controlling the weapon.

    Crafty dog of the dog brothers is just about to release his program on knife defense, and i'd like to see how it works out as well.
  9. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Sunny Hawaii
    Posts
    4,972

    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 2:17am

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Krav has some fairly good battle testing, but only a moderate amount of the relevant sample group is getting people trying to stab them, and of those only a small portion are really giving feedback to a central organization that can affect the curriculum that will appear in the typical Level one class. Knife drilling only appears implictly(the knife defense that you learn is only rarely refered to as a knife defense, and is done without knives). You do not drill this defense with any real resistance{in the drill the feeder is encouraged to hit very hard, but not to get around the defense}.

    Of course, the defenses vary wildly between the levels, but seeeeeem to be more coordinated inside block/centerline punch thingies.

    STAB and Red Zone programs only have moderate street testing but are praticed with high levels of resistance from day one, so I think we can draw some reasonable conclusions about how it works out.
    Whatever you do, don't waste your time with systema farcical concepts, they'll get you killed. Karl Tanswell interview - Time index 4:56

    Pekiti Tirsia Kali is the HTH system that was adopted by the phillipine Force Recon marines in response to rapidly rising mortality rates from bladed assaults(Moro insurgents love their swords, and in close quarters combat in high grass, guns simply weren't coming into play nearly enough). It has seen a large reduction in blade-caused mortality, and is now spreading to mandatory training for all levels of the phillipine marines and police special-response units. Pretty much no one is getting stabbed at as much as these marines, but a large body of the techniques center on parts that might not be useful to civilians, such as creating the space to bring a gun or machete into play, as opposed to focusing entirely on controlling the weapon.
    Good, at least you're not mouthing the mantra, "The Filipino's have used knife and stick fighting techniques to fight off foreign invaders for centuries." To which I always say, "When, during the Spanish rule or when the Japanese took over their country? Both times it was largely due to the American servicemen and not the Filipino's that repelled foreign invasion.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  10. billy sol hurok is offline
    billy sol hurok's Avatar

    Welterweight

    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    East Coast
    Posts
    849

    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 7:42am

    supporting member
     Style: age&treachery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Krav has some fairly good battle testing, but only a moderate amount of the relevant sample group is getting people trying to stab them, and of those only a small portion are really giving feedback to a central organization that can affect the curriculum that will appear in the typical Level one class. Knife drilling only appears implictly(the knife defense that you learn is only rarely refered to as a knife defense, and is done without knives).
    Although there is a centralized curriculum, Krav instruction varies from school to school, it seems. At level one we worked knife defenses using wooden tantos (though not often); more attacks and defenses were added at level two.

    The defense that you described earlier -- the "outside defense" -- is taught more as a gross motor skill against any kind of slashing or circular attack. Which I guess is why you refer to it as "implicit." Defenses against stabs, and other straight-line attacks, tend to be more "inside defenses."


    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    You do not drill this defense with any real resistance{in the drill the feeder is encouraged to hit very hard, but not to get around the defense}.
    Again, can depend on the instructor. I was fortunate enough to have instructors who didn't mind if, after working the drill dry for a while, we wanted to increase resistance to pressure-test the techniques. Which I invariably did, when I had a like-minded partner.

    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Of course, the defenses vary wildly between the levels, but seeeeeem to be more coordinated inside block/centerline punch thingies.

    STAB and Red Zone programs only have moderate street testing but are praticed with high levels of resistance from day one, so I think we can draw some reasonable conclusions about how it works out.
    The tactics may differ somewhat -- I've only seen a bit of what's involved in their approaches -- but near as I can tell the strategy is the same: neutralize/redirect/control/smother the attack while counter-attacking with massive, overwhelming, rabid aggression. Makes sense to me. Of course, the devil is in the details of how you close that gap . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali is the HTH system that was adopted by the phillipine Force Recon marines in response to rapidly rising mortality rates from bladed assaults(Moro insurgents love their swords, and in close quarters combat in high grass, guns simply weren't coming into play nearly enough). It has seen a large reduction in blade-caused mortality, and is now spreading to mandatory training for all levels of the phillipine marines and police special-response units. Pretty much no one is getting stabbed at as much as these marines, but a large body of the techniques center on parts that might not be useful to civilians, such as creating the space to bring a gun or machete into play, as opposed to focusing entirely on controlling the weapon.
    Gonna find me some PTK one of these days . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical
    Crafty dog of the dog brothers is just about to release his program on knife defense, and i'd like to see how it works out as well.
    Yeah, that too!
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 123 4 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.