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  1. JonK is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 11:35am


     Style: judo, wrestling, bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I hate to be a parrot, but: excellent post.

    When I first got back into judo (and first started taking BJJ) I was exactly as you described - I loved going against the guys I knew I could beat; I hated going against the guys I knew could beat me. Luckily I realized fairly early on that, doing this, I wasn't really getting much better, whereas the guys I was throwing/tapping a month ago were all of a sudden giving me a good fight.

    Lately I've made a point of asking our instructor to spar a round or two after every class, and they've been gracious enough to oblige. I get completely clowned every time, but every time I take something away from it.
  2. Student is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 11:57am

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     Style: BJJ, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    another quick point about winning and tapping. Let's assume I need work on my triangle defense - and I happen to be rolling with a guy who just wants to win. Now, to get better at defending the triangle I need to put myself in a position to be triangled, and then work my way out of it, and then repeat.

    So I start working my defense, and chances are, if the other guy has a decent triangle, and is just looking for the win, he will most likely tap me until I have developed enough skill in this. (* The flip side would be to work with a good training partner who could care less about tapping you, but wants to make your triangle defense stronger, knowing that in turn, that will force them to develop a stronger attacking game with their triangle *)

    So, who gets the 'win' - me for working my triangle defense, or him for getting a tap as I work my escapes... I'm sure in his mind he clearly gets the win.

    The real answer of course is who the **** cares - we're training!
    Last edited by Student; 5/24/2006 11:59am at .
  3. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 1:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very good posts. I agree 100%
  4. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 3:22pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah yes the Guananamo Bay post. I remember contributing to that one.

    Glad you ressurected the best parts of that one here.

    I will say, or admit rather, that I retard my own progress. I am afraid to tap out to lower belts. Heck I am afraid to tap out to higher belts. I am a competitive person. When I am schooled I drive home grinding my teeth. I am not mad at someone else. I am mad at myself. It is one of the things that drives me to improve. But at the same time we all have a natural fear of negative, harmfull or painfull things. It is innate. I have avoided training with people.

    I'll give an example. From last night.

    Sim Go is probably one of the best purple belts at his weight. I outweigh him by 40 lbs. But I FEAR his halfguard. Seriously. When we rolled last night I retarded my own training by making it a point to AVOID his half-guard. Guess what? He swept me 3 times with it. I looked like a fucking chump. 2 other purples and Jeff Glover were cheering him on when he swept me with, to be honest, was pure technique. It does NOT feel good. Ever. And like I said I went home grinding my teeth. I didn't avoid him per se, but I wanted no part of his game. And my lack of confidence resulted in a poor performance. A better attitude would have been to say ****-it, Imma see what he's got and show him my game.

    I am not ego-less. And I laugh at those people who say they are. It's a lie. Nobody likes to tap out or be dominated.

    Last night I went with 2 purple belts and 2 blue belts. Oddly enough I did better with the purples than I did with the blues. Well - lets ignore Sim for a while. He sweep-schooled me. Let me clarify. When I rolled with the blues I was less likely to finish a sub because I didn't want to lose my position. The best example was the first blue belt. I had him in a collar choke from the back. I put my knee behind his head and HAD him. He was defending with his fingers but he was a dead man. I actually let go of the choke. Why? Because I didn't want my fingers to get tired and lose my grip for the later matches. FEAR.

    It sucks to actually say I am guilty of this. But I am. I'll bet we all are in one way or other.

    But then on the other hand I sincerely look forward to rolling with the higher belts or the bigger guys because it is a real challenge. So I know it isn't neccessarily a fear of losing. I have lost plenty. The novelty has worn off there. But losing to someone who isn't as good as me? I don't like that. Let's be honest there IS a heirarchy at the gym. It might not just be belt colors. But eatting your way up the food chain feels good. Getting eatten by lower fishies is not cool.

    So what I am saying is although I KNOW what the right thing to do is I don't always do it.

    I think has Johnny said earlier that defense is the key to measuring success. I think I said something similar in the Guantanamo thread. Seeing guys that used to be able to eat you not tapping you really shows improvement.


    It breaks down to this: We are all motivated for different reasons. Some people are motivated by fear, and others by success. Many times being motivated by fear is negative while being motivated by success is positive.

    Looking through my own training logs I see that I am motivated by both. The thought of doing very well against Spangler makes me happy. The thought of seeing my old training partner tapping me makes me sad. I think that is sorta natural and as long as you are aware of it you are okay.

    Looking back through my training logs I am reminded of a guy I punked out at one class. He tried to snipe one of our guys and I called him on it. He sat the entire class on the wall talking to the instructor. And when one of my buddies rolled and rolled and rolled until well after class was over and then rolled some more. I was actually fully dressed and leaving when this guy calls my buddy to train on the mat. My bud was completely exhausted. I was like...oh hell no. I told him straight out he was sniping. If he wanted to train he could have joined the class. If he wanted to roll he could have done it during sparring. But going after the most tired guy in class after the instructor is gone so you have a shot at tapping a higher belt is bullshit. It got sorta ugly and I am the kinda person who tells you what I think.

    Another incident came at my old school around the time I started. One of the kids dads did 'no-gi' only over at LVCC. He was much bigger than me and asked me to roll. Before we started he was pretty clear that he was a headhunter. He didn't even recognize it. But he was all like...So far I have got a couple of purple belts and a brown belt. Someday I will tap a black. I was like.....uhhh ok. Then I proceeded to just maul his ass. I guess since I was only doing gi work back then he thought it would be an easy notch on his belt. It wasn't. But had he tapped me somehow through some fluke I am sure it would have been another notch on his belt. A belt which was invisible to anyone but him, and in reality meant nothing because he didn't even have the skills of a blue belt.
  5. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 3:29pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm going to save this thread as there's some very interesting stuff both from NSLightsOut and Yrkoon.

    I can say that this attitude exists somewhat in Wing Chun, but with several important differences. Namely, it's not about tapping, but about getting "hit" in chi sao. Also, no one ever moves outside of the "small pond" so being a big fish ends up being quite important. I also believe Yrkoon is right- everyone has an ego. But my feelings are that supressing it, or just letting it evaporate, works best for me. At the moment, anyway.
  6. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 4:52pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    **** Wing Chun.
    More human than human is our motto.
  7. Mjelva is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 5:10pm


     Style: BJJ, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    **** Wing Chun.
    From now on, this will be known simply as 'FWC'.
    Please take note.
  8. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 6:29pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Great post Yrkoon9.

    One of the things that Rigan told me to work on was my defence, and this was also backed up by John Will saying to everyone to do the same. I've started to work it and last night at training I was working my defence and got armbarred by a good brown belt. I could have thought "I better tap him quick so he doesn't get the wrong idea", but I controlled my ego and just kept trying to work what I needed to. I'm not going to tell anyone it's easy to lose the ego, but I will tell them it's necessary for continued growth.
  9. NSLightsOut is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 6:54pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I am not ego-less. And I laugh at those people who say they are. It's a lie. Nobody likes to tap out or be dominated.
    I definitely agree with your sentiments. I don't like tapping out, or being positionally dominated by anyone. However, I'm even more annoyed if I don't learn anything from the experience, be it training or competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I actually let go of the choke. Why? Because I didn't want my fingers to get tired and lose my grip for the later matches. FEAR.

    It sucks to actually say I am guilty of this. But I am. I'll bet we all are in one way or other.

    But then on the other hand I sincerely look forward to rolling with the higher belts or the bigger guys because it is a real challenge. So I know it isn't neccessarily a fear of losing. I have lost plenty. The novelty has worn off there. But losing to someone who isn't as good as me? I don't like that. Let's be honest there IS a heirarchy at the gym. It might not just be belt colors. But eatting your way up the food chain feels good. Getting eatten by lower fishies is not cool.

    So what I am saying is although I KNOW what the right thing to do is I don't always do it.

    I think has Johnny said earlier that defense is the key to measuring success. I think I said something similar in the Guantanamo thread. Seeing guys that used to be able to eat you not tapping you really shows improvement.

    It breaks down to this: We are all motivated for different reasons. Some people are motivated by fear, and others by success. Many times being motivated by fear is negative while being motivated by success is positive.

    Looking through my own training logs I see that I am motivated by both. The thought of doing very well against Spangler makes me happy. The thought of seeing my old training partner tapping me makes me sad. I think that is sorta natural and as long as you are aware of it you are okay.

    Looking back through my training logs I am reminded of a guy I punked out at one class. He tried to snipe one of our guys and I called him on it. He sat the entire class on the wall talking to the instructor. And when one of my buddies rolled and rolled and rolled until well after class was over and then rolled some more. I was actually fully dressed and leaving when this guy calls my buddy to train on the mat. My bud was completely exhausted. I was like...oh hell no. I told him straight out he was sniping. If he wanted to train he could have joined the class. If he wanted to roll he could have done it during sparring. But going after the most tired guy in class after the instructor is gone so you have a shot at tapping a higher belt is bullshit. It got sorta ugly and I am the kinda person who tells you what I think.

    Another incident came at my old school around the time I started. One of the kids dads did 'no-gi' only over at LVCC. He was much bigger than me and asked me to roll. Before we started he was pretty clear that he was a headhunter. He didn't even recognize it. But he was all like...So far I have got a couple of purple belts and a brown belt. Someday I will tap a black. I was like.....uhhh ok. Then I proceeded to just maul his ass. I guess since I was only doing gi work back then he thought it would be an easy notch on his belt. It wasn't. But had he tapped me somehow through some fluke I am sure it would have been another notch on his belt. A belt which was invisible to anyone but him, and in reality meant nothing because he didn't even have the skills of a blue belt.
    I agree with your statement on motivations (fear = unhealthy, drive for success = healthy). A certain level of competitiveness is healthy, beyond that is definitely not healthy, potentially leading to the "headhunter" mentality that you've addressed quite succinctly. I actually intend to address this further tomorrow or Saturday, when I have some time to arrange my thoughts about the role of the team and duties of the individual in training into a coherent form.

    I think we all think about the pecking order to a certain extent when it comes to organising our own training/who we train with for what purpose (ie. Person X is technical and a better grappler than me, but rips subs and sweeps on with dangerous strength/speed. I'm going to avoid rolling with him while I'm injured. Person Y is on the same level as me, and is good for a technical war. Person Z is a random white belt, etc.).

    However, in my experience it seems to promote that "headhunter" mentality in training. I've been guilty of it to a certain extent in the past. However, when I started to become competitive with the better guys I train with, whilst it was gratifying, actually submitting a higher belt seemed to bring on far less elation than it had previously. I hadn't been gunning for them, just trying to compete with the same intensity as I do with people at my own belt level.

    Believe me, I'm not trying to deride the competitive drive. I'm driven to succeed both on the mat and in competition, like most people who make it past the first month of training. I just believe that it can be taken to an unhealthy, unhelpful place when it is overemphasised in training. Once again, I'd like to address this further within the next few days.
  10. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 6:55pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I need a 12 step ego program for real. I know it sounds funny but it's true. I could get a lot more out of my training if I worried about the OTHER guy less.
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