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  1. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 8:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIJoe6186
    But as far as I know no Kung Fu schools or styles have San Da type techniques and training in their school or style.
    When i attended Tai-Chi classes some years ago (put the blame on my wife) the instructor was also the Sanda instructor, and he trained at least 2 european level Sanda competitors i know.

    This year he has 1 regional Sanda sub-champion in his club, the same guy also won the "Traditional South B" forms division (not sure what it means, i'm not versed in modern wushu forms) at the same tournament.

    Stop thinking TMA training in the "USA way" is the only training available in the world.
  2. TehDeadlyDimMak is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 10:27pm


     Style: Sanda, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm gonna try to avoid the temptation to plug how amazing our SanShou guys are.

    oops. :P
  3. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 12:46am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ok I can now understand what you are talking about. But all I have to base my assumption on is all of the Kung Fun I have seen. Where Im from it all sux. Maybe thats just LI and what Ive seen. So WTF is the point of doing Kung Fu though when you don't use most of your techniques in sparring. Thats my point. Like you guys said, no one uses the cat stance or other silly **** yet it is still practiced. Why? One of the guys said it before, the form is to familiarize the student with techniqes. Its an easy way to learn. No problem with that. So why would there be impractical **** in the form?

    Taking advice on forms from a karate guy? Maybe you should. Karate has forms too. So do most TMA. Im not saying TMA sux balls just that when you do forms with impractical techniques you just ingrain bad habits. Why not spend all of your time focusing on those that can be used in sparring?

    The Kung Fu schools that I know do this: forms all day. Friday they spar lightly. Why not Spar on Friday and use the bags, drill and prepare to spar the other days? If your Kung Fu school does that, if they train in an alive manner, drop the cat stances then Ill be impressed. If they pick out the throws they can use live against an unwilling opponent and discard the rest that will impress me.
  4. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 3:21am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIJoe6186
    Ok I can now understand what you are talking about. But all I have to base my assumption on is all of the Kung Fun I have seen. Where Im from it all sux. Maybe thats just LI and what Ive seen. So WTF is the point of doing Kung Fu though when you don't use most of your techniques in sparring. Thats my point. Like you guys said, no one uses the cat stance or other silly **** yet it is still practiced. Why? One of the guys said it before, the form is to familiarize the student with techniqes. Its an easy way to learn. No problem with that. So why would there be impractical **** in the form?
    Stances are like still frames from a movie. The point of practicing them is that they're key points on the track of movement that you want to move through. You're not going to see a guy hanging out in cat stance, but he'll move through it on the way to kicking with the lead leg. If the cat is bad, he might have his knee pointing the wrong way or otherwise suck.

    You do indeed use a whole bunch of the techniques sparring, but the form often exaggerates in order to amplify the feel of doing it, as well as to increase the difficulty level for the sake of general conditioning. In my style and others, the forms tend to get more "realistic" as you progress as the perceived need for that kind of conditioning drops.

    I can't tell you whether the physical attributes granted by forms training are worth it. I like the stability and smoothness it's given me within my range of motion and the benefits feel different that cardio, stretching or strength training on their own.

    In the Sanda vs. Muay Thai clip, for instance, the Muay Thai guy got rocked with two inside crescent kicks. You might slap your own hand in the form or do it with a leap to get a feel for it, but that's not the "live" technique any more than yoga exercises are the same as bridge and roll.

    The problem is that the forms are easier to learn (and to steal for your own hybrid art) than the progressive drills and sparring methods that are *also* in every complete CMA. Forms practice is *not* meant to develop a conditioned reflex for application. There's other stuff for that.

    Taking advice on forms from a karate guy? Maybe you should. Karate has forms too. So do most TMA. Im not saying TMA sux balls just that when you do forms with impractical techniques you just ingrain bad habits. Why not spend all of your time focusing on those that can be used in sparring?
    Part of it is tradition. Part of it is that knowing a form can help get you out of a rut when you're training solo, so it acts as an intellectual exercise. Part of it is overall conditioning.

    The Kung Fu schools that I know do this: forms all day. Friday they spar lightly. Why not Spar on Friday and use the bags, drill and prepare to spar the other days? If your Kung Fu school does that, if they train in an alive manner, drop the cat stances then Ill be impressed. If they pick out the throws they can use live against an unwilling opponent and discard the rest that will impress me.
    I'd say my school is about 25% forms, 50% drills with a progressive amount of aliveness and 25% sparring. Usually it goes from:

    Form
    to
    Bit of Form applied
    to
    Live drill with that bit
    to
    General live drill (may or may not have to do with the bit of form)
    to
    Sparring

    That's the basic process, though it may play out through more than one class depending on who's there. Some weak schools *never* get passed forms and dead application drills. Some schools are all about foundational training and sparring, with forms tacked on as a cool down. And hell -- forms aren't for everybody.
  5. Beaton Yu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 6:26am


     Style: Judo, Xbox

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIJoe6186
    Ok I can now understand what you are talking about. But all I have to base my assumption on is all of the Kung Fun I have seen. Where Im from it all sux. Maybe thats just LI and what Ive seen. So WTF is the point of doing Kung Fu though when you don't use most of your techniques in sparring. Thats my point. Like you guys said, no one uses the cat stance or other silly **** yet it is still practiced. Why? One of the guys said it before, the form is to familiarize the student with techniqes. Its an easy way to learn. No problem with that. So why would there be impractical **** in the form?

    Taking advice on forms from a karate guy? Maybe you should. Karate has forms too. So do most TMA. Im not saying TMA sux balls just that when you do forms with impractical techniques you just ingrain bad habits. Why not spend all of your time focusing on those that can be used in sparring?

    The Kung Fu schools that I know do this: forms all day. Friday they spar lightly. Why not Spar on Friday and use the bags, drill and prepare to spar the other days? If your Kung Fu school does that, if they train in an alive manner, drop the cat stances then Ill be impressed. If they pick out the throws they can use live against an unwilling opponent and discard the rest that will impress me.

    This may surprise you, but there are people in this world (myself included) who train in the martial arts for more reasons than just kicking ass. I've learned many things in KF that I personally would never try to use in a fight because of my style and limitations, but I had a lot of fun learning them anyway. Hell, I seriously doubt I'll ever need to use a broad sword to defend myself, but I love doing the form.

    It's the same thing with Judo. I doubt I'll ever be able to pull off Uki-otoshi in Shiai or Randori, but I practice it anyway. Why? Because it's part of Judo...and my Sensei said so.
  6. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 11:28am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beaton Yu
    This may surprise you, but there are people in this world (myself included) who train in the martial arts for more reasons than just kicking ass. I've learned many things in KF that I personally would never try to use in a fight because of my style and limitations, but I had a lot of fun learning them anyway. Hell, I seriously doubt I'll ever need to use a broad sword to defend myself, but I love doing the form.

    It's the same thing with Judo. I doubt I'll ever be able to pull off Uki-otoshi in Shiai or Randori, but I practice it anyway. Why? Because it's part of Judo...and my Sensei said so.
    Thats ok! But what Im talking about is for fighting. To make it the msot efficient way to learn. Ill admit there are other reasons people train. Hell even I enjoyed learning some 'chucks forms. Will it ever help me fight? Probally not. It was cool to learn though. But that only forms a tiny tiny part of my training. Doesnt even happen anymore.

    What Im talking about is that it is pointless to practice a dead form WITH unecessary parts to it. If it was composed of techniques you are going to use in sparring and was used to teach those techniques in sequence, then I think thats fine.

    If you want to fight though which is my primary goal and most other peoples here, then an alive training method is needed where you train with what you spar. Then doing silly work that you don't use should be chopped out of the form and art. If you wanna preserve tradtiotn go ahead but remember its tradition not pure fighting.
  7. Beaton Yu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 11:55am


     Style: Judo, Xbox

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIJoe6186
    Thats ok! But what Im talking about is for fighting. To make it the msot efficient way to learn. Ill admit there are other reasons people train. Hell even I enjoyed learning some 'chucks forms. Will it ever help me fight? Probally not. It was cool to learn though. But that only forms a tiny tiny part of my training. Doesnt even happen anymore.

    What Im talking about is that it is pointless to practice a dead form WITH unecessary parts to it. If it was composed of techniques you are going to use in sparring and was used to teach those techniques in sequence, then I think thats fine.

    If you want to fight though which is my primary goal and most other peoples here, then an alive training method is needed where you train with what you spar. Then doing silly work that you don't use should be chopped out of the form and art. If you wanna preserve tradtiotn go ahead but remember its tradition not pure fighting.

    I guess it's just a difference in our reasons for and approach to training. If my only concern was fighting then yes, it would be a waste of my time to do forms with moves that have no (IMHO) practical application and traditional weapons training, etc.

    I have room in my training schedule for both fun stuff and real life training with hard contact sparring. Besides, when I was a younger man I did my time in a school that was entirely full contact oriented. My body couldn't take that much regular abuse any more.

    A good school (which I admit can be hard to find) should be able to balance tradition with producing good fighters.
  8. MajinFajita is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 1:36pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't help myself, so I apologize in advance....

    Quite contrary to the "real kung fu fighting does not and should not look like the forms" stream of thought/reality, Wong Kiew Kit says that KF practicioners should fight like how the forms are.

    Then again, this comes from an org that believes you can stave off a real boxer but pushing on their head.
  9. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 1:51pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Any fighter should fight like they train. That includes forms. That is unless if you decide that your martial art is not entirley realistic in its approach to fighting. My only hatred is towards people who do Kung Fu or anything, train one way, yet say they fight another way. If you can admit your forms are sorta dumb for actual fighitng then at least you admit it.

    Its like saying Aikido is for fighting. Your lying or retarded.
  10. Beaton Yu is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/25/2006 1:58pm


     Style: Judo, Xbox

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIJoe6186
    Any fighter should fight like they train.

    I do. Everything I do in a fight I train...HARD. I just happen to also train a bunch of **** that doesn't find it's way into my fights.


    You think that's a waste of time. Fine, that's your opinion. Just don't make the mistake of thinking that all KF fighters are a joke.
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