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  1. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 7:01am

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     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vile
    Isn't it funny how sensitive the MT guys get when you point out that they don't train full resistance all the time? Like ANYONE does.
    I don't think Reese was being any more serious than I was. And as for Kidspatula.. I for one think it's a good thing that Kidspatula can't find a coach who will let her elbow people in the face full power without any padding. And deep down, so does she.
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  2. psychalogy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 9:32am


     Style: Hoshin, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Reese
    Hold on there little cowboy perhaps you have me confused with some one who may have claimed that eye gouging is somehow not a valid technique.
    I wasn't suggesting that you were badmouthing particular techniques, I was suggesting that when other arts train at anything less than full intensity they are commonly labelled bullshido. Even when their reasons for doing so are the same as those MT uses for not training some techniques full force.

    You didn't say this in this thread, it was simply a useful segue into discussing a commonly held position on the bullshido boards. I found it interesting that someone studying what is considered to be among the hardest of hard styles admits to not training 100% intensity with everything they do. Not usually the impression given here.

    As for the groin, there is no special strike devised exclusively for the groin but I'll tell you this, a muay thai man or anyone who trains as extensively with knees has a better chance to score a "foul" shot than someone who air boxes.
    A MT pracitioner certainly has a better chance to score with a heavily trained technique than someone that doesn't train these strikes. Whether it will be a 'foul' shot is another matter. Just as important as training the actual technique is training your mental mindset with regards to targeting. If all you ever do is train to knee to the thigh or midsection then when you're under real pressure that's what you'll do. You need to be thinking about these foul shots on a regular basis and training the positioning and movement to throw them to have any real hope of being able to do it when your balls are actually on the line.

    Again, this isn't a criticism of MT simply an observation of how humans operate.

    As for not tearing your sparring partners head open with a pointy elbow during sparring is concerned well it's just common courtesy.

    The effects of properly trained elbow strikes are apparent enough to anyone who's ever seen a MMA or Muay Thai match.

    There is no inconsistency in my statements.

    Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.
    I'd say this courtesy exists in most MA schools. It'd get difficult to keep finding new students otherwise.

    As for your comments on elbow strikes, absolutely!
    Although even poorly trained or untrained elbows and bare knuckle punches do a dandy job of opening up someone's head. I see this most weekends at the large metropolitan hospital where I work.

    That last point is also the reason why I'd advocate a striking style for someone strictly interested in getting a usable level of self defense ability quickly. It seems that the first solid strike landed seems to end most street fights. I have yet to see someone come through emergency wearing a neck brace due to being choked out by someone in a pub, or with a blown elbow from an arm bar. I have seen plenty come through missing teeth, with horribly lacerated cheeks and fractured mandibles, maxilary bones, zygomatic arches and orbits from getting struck in the head.

    From talking to these people the hit that landed them in emergency was also the one that ended the fight.

    Many of these people were also not properly switched on to the possibility of imminent violence. A punch you're ready for doesn't seem to do as much damage as one that comes almost out of the blue.

    So an art that teaches situational awareness and quick, efficient strikes to selected targets on the body would seem to fit the bill. Something like Krav Maga for instance. It may not be where you want to spend 10-20 years as a martial artist, but for six - 12 months it could be hard to beat.

    And before anyone brings it up yes I am aware of sampling error, what I see most weekends is still interesting however.
    Last edited by psychalogy; 5/23/2006 9:58am at .
  3. psychalogy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 9:35am


     Style: Hoshin, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    Seriously, are you this stupid or do you really need to have the difference between controlled sparring and compliant drilling explained?

    Besides, with fuctards like you, we will never run short of punching bags.

    Ahh the wonders of the internet and it's endless opportunities to argue with semiliterate retards and keyboard tough guys. Luckily for me Locu5 saved me the trouble of finding separate examples of each.

    Now to get to his question, such as it was. Anyone who's been paying attention in their martial arts classes knows that compliant drilling must come before sparring of any kind, compliant or not. Unless of course you're happy to get by with shithouse technique on everything but the very basics. Pay attention, it's likely this applies to you.
    To learn any technique properly (not just execution but targeting and distancing) you must go through some degree of compliant drilling. Once you've shown you've got it right there then maybe you can be trusted to try it in a more realistic setting. The more dangerous the technique is though the more control you must have before trying it out on another human being. You don't have to be off by much on a strike to the eyes or throat to cause serious harm. Many styles apparently don't bother training such things and stick to the basics which can be practised at full speed relatively early on. This isn't necessarily a bad approach as it can work for many people most of the time. Some people, however, want more from their training.

    Now, are you sure that YOU understand the difference between compliant drilling and controlled sparring?

    Oh and if you're going to insult someone it works much better if you can at least spell the intended insult correctly. As an example:
    "Locu5 is a FUCKTARD!"
    Did you see what I did there? .......no? I thought as much.
    Oh well keep at it and I'm sure you'll get it eventually, that or die of old age.

    So next time you want a punching bag on here Locu5 feel free to look me up creampuff. I'm sure you're room temperature IQ will really give me a run for my money.
  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 10:25am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by psychalogy
    A MT pracitioner certainly has a better chance to score with a heavily trained technique than someone that doesn't train these strikes. Whether it will be a 'foul' shot is another matter. Just as important as training the actual technique is training your mental mindset with regards to targeting. If all you ever do is train to knee to the thigh or midsection then when you're under real pressure that's what you'll do. You need to be thinking about these foul shots on a regular basis and training the positioning and movement to throw them to have any real hope of being able to do it when your balls are actually on the line.

    Again, this isn't a criticism of MT simply an observation of how humans operate.

    Then your powers of observation regarding the human condition are sub-standard. People who find a way to train a "close enough" technique at or near full-power with safety will be more likely to to smash someone in the nuts without hesitation than someone training by pretending to hit someone in the nuts because doing so at full power is "too deadly."

    You don't have to take my word on this apparent training paradox where creating rules perceived as "fair", "safe", and "non-lethal" will draw out a proper "fighter's mindset" which would allow them to effectively and automatically use such "foul tactics". However, I do suggest you consider heeding to the authority of the United States Military on this matter.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 5/23/2006 10:28am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

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  5. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 10:37am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Would you spellcheck my post too asshole?

    Quote Originally Posted by psychalogy
    Now, are you sure that YOU understand the difference between compliant drilling and controlled sparring?

    Oh and if you're going to insult someone it works much better if you can at least spell the intended insult correctly. As an example:
    "Locu5 is a FUCKTARD!"
    Did you see what I did there? .......no? I thought as much.
    Oh well keep at it and I'm sure you'll get it eventually, that or die of old age.

    So next time you want a punching bag on here Locu5 feel free to look me up creampuff. I'm sure you're room temperature IQ will really give me a run for my money.
    Hey fucktard, thanks for your insight into compliant drilling versus sparring. Gee, you're thoughts are so fresh and new. A poster like Locu5, who has been fighting the good fight on here for years, wouldn't have any idea what you're talking about.

    He is a known quantity and uses logic and empirical evidence to argue with the shitheads that regularly invade this site.

    You on the other hand seem to be an insufferable twit who is heartily impressed with his own stale arguments. **** off
    Shut the hell up and train.
  6. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 10:42am

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Quick note on judo for self defence:

    There are a couple of things to watch out for which can compromise judo as a self-defence art: one, drop-knee throws (don't try this on concrete, kids!) and two, turtling after a throw fails instead of going to guard. You don't need to do either of these things to be successful in judo, so it's quite possible to train at a competition-oriented club and keep in touch with the self-defence aspect; just exercise a little discernment while you're creating your personal judo style.

    Of course, this is a relative compromising; judo is done full tilt on generally athletic people fighting back with all they've got, which gives it a huge superiority over arts which don't train against people who're fighting back. Additionally, since it's very hard to get out of grappling range back to striking range without knowing how to grapple, it's historically done very well in challenge matches with even good pure striking styles.
    I would also like to point out that, at least the way it looks here in South Florida, most Judo dojos are full of teenagers. I rarely get an adult to practice with, and that's making me wonder if I should stay where I am longer or go enroll in a BJJ school again where there are more adults to train with.

    Why do I say that? Well, The only person big enough to practice with me and who's not a black belt is usually this 200lbs, orange belt 15 year old kid. All the other individuals my size (150lbs+/-)... actually every body else is a black belt, and they concentrate almost exclusively with each other in preparations for tourneys. That's all they do. The only time I interact with them is when doing warm ups and sometimes uchikomi.

    And a kid is a kid. The kid I work with usually is in a good mood to practice, and sometimes he just doesn't and wants to roll with the black belts... even if his technique is sloppy and horrible as ****... so instead of dealing with that, sometimes I end up spending 30 minutes of the class not doing anything (well, I use that time to do pushups, situps and what not... but that's not the idea!!!!)

    That would not happen if I were with a group of adults at various levels of learning... or so I hope :sad:

    So if you find a Judo dojo with a good size of adults of various sizes and learning levels, go for it. If the dojo is full of competitive black belt kids... still give it a try, but just know that it may or may not work for you. If the dojo is exclusively a haven for competitive teen judokas, it may not have the resources (or inclination) to train an adult. But you won't know until you give it a try.
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  7. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 10:47am

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     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    I don't think Reese was being any more serious than I was. And as for Kidspatula.. I for one think it's a good thing that Kidspatula can't find a coach who will let her elbow people in the face full power without any padding. And deep down, so does she.
    I very rarely spar ANYTHING full power. If anyone claims to spar full contact all the time, they're probably full of ****. Full contact is fighting, not sparring.
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  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 10:59am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by psychalogy
    Ahh the wonders of the internet and it's endless opportunities to argue with semiliterate retards and keyboard tough guys.

    Oh and if you're going to insult someone it works much better if you can at least spell the intended insult correctly. As an example:
    "Locu5 is a FUCKTARD!"



    So next time you want a punching bag on here Locu5 feel free to look me up creampuff. I'm sure you're room temperature IQ will really give me a run for my money.
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..............

    You call someone an internet tough guy while issue a challenge from Sydney.

    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.............


    Hahahahahahahahahahah......................IQ..... ..bwahahahahahahaahahaah

    You are calling into question Locu5's IQ with, the spelling of a made up word? Bwahahahahahahahahaha.

    Please stay. Please...
  9. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 2:30pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by psychalogy
    Ahh the wonders of the internet and it's endless opportunities to argue with semiliterate retards and keyboard tough guys. Luckily for me Locu5 saved me the trouble of finding separate examples of each.

    Now to get to his question, such as it was. Anyone who's been paying attention in their martial arts classes knows that compliant drilling must come before sparring of any kind, compliant or not. Unless of course you're happy to get by with shithouse technique on everything but the very basics. Pay attention, it's likely this applies to you.
    To learn any technique properly (not just execution but targeting and distancing) you must go through some degree of compliant drilling. Once you've shown you've got it right there then maybe you can be trusted to try it in a more realistic setting. The more dangerous the technique is though the more control you must have before trying it out on another human being. You don't have to be off by much on a strike to the eyes or throat to cause serious harm. Many styles apparently don't bother training such things and stick to the basics which can be practised at full speed relatively early on. This isn't necessarily a bad approach as it can work for many people most of the time. Some people, however, want more from their training.
    Tell you what, you go and find places that ever spar with eye gouges, fish hooks, etc at medium contact. Since you won't find any you will have to content yourself with people who drill them in a compliant manner. While you are looking for sources, I would refer you to the wide number of "limited sports stylists using basic techniques" who spar with what they do all the time. Who has a better grasp on their skill sets and can translate them better into violence?

    Spoiler:
    HINT: It involves sparring.


    Also your previous assertion that current UFC rules restrict strikers shows a laughable understanding of the ruleset, which actually favors strikers over grapplers for the most part.

    So let's step back a bit shall we... what kind of sparring do you do?
  10. psychalogy is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/23/2006 10:29pm


     Style: Hoshin, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Then your powers of observation regarding the human condition are sub-standard. People who find a way to train a "close enough" technique at or near full-power with safety will be more likely to to smash someone in the nuts without hesitation than someone training by pretending to hit someone in the nuts because doing so at full power is "too deadly."

    You don't have to take my word on this apparent training paradox where creating rules perceived as "fair", "safe", and "non-lethal" will draw out a proper "fighter's mindset" which would allow them to effectively and automatically use such "foul tactics". However, I do suggest you consider heeding to the authority of the United States Military on this matter.
    Hey Tom, it's entirely possible that my powers of observation are 'sub-standard', although on the issue of pre-learned conditioned responses and likely behaviours under stressful conditions I don't think the remarks I made above are too wide of the mark. If you disagree that’s cool, and I am genuinely interested in knowing why. And as this is an internet forum and not a scientific journal I figured I could do away with the Harvard referencing in the post of mine which you quoted.

    I’m also interested in the train of reasoning that led to the conclusion that training ‘close enough’ (and assuming that that’s what you’re doing, training a particular technique with the mindset of modifying it once you actually have to apply it and not training some different technique (from a targeting perspective) which you may or may not attempt to modify on the fly) leads to less hesitation. I don’t think I mentioned anything about hesitation in any of my previous posts but if you want to discuss it feel free.

    As for your second paragraph, what is it exactly that the US Military says that disagrees with the doctrine of heavily pre-drilled responses being the likely behavioural outcome in a high stress environment? The whole point of a recruit course (boot camp to you yanks) is to break the individual down and retrain their ways of thinking and reacting. The idea being to instil automatic pre learned responses to specific stimuli (e.g. the command of your section commander, the ‘bang, click’ scenario, etc) which can be carried out quickly with minimal conscious thought and while adrenaline is trying to turn you into a quivering heap. Also the ‘warrior’s mindset’ that every infantryman’s course in history has tried to impart has way more to it than the rule set on whatever H2H combatives are taught. It is a continuous and ever present theme that pervades every part of the course.

    I don’t see too much difference between training a weapon clearance drill 1000’s of times and training a specific martial arts strike 1000’s of times in class. In both cases it seems likely that when you don’t have the time or the capability to think clearly there's a high chance that you’ll carry out the most heavily trained response. This is what armed forces the world over are counting on.

    I’m still not saying that the more sport oriented strikes and techniques (i.e. those allowed in competition) have no value or are ineffective, far from it. They are an integral and necessary part of any self-defence oriented martial training. Just that they’re not the be all and end all of hand to hand combat.
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