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  1. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 7:32pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dakotajudo
    Not pulling guard - it's a false tomoe-nage.
    GET REAL.

    Watch those first few minutes again.

    That was not a throw attempt. That was not a 'false throw'. That was a weak ass guard drag. False tomoe-nage. LOL.

    You must remember that KOSEN judo is a style of competition from the 1920s, and reflects the rules of that era; at the time, you could be penalized for simpy dragging an opponent into groundwork, so you needed to use something that looked like a throw - and may even work as a throw.
    Just in case you weren't watching...that wasn't a throw attempt. That was simply dragging the opponent into groundwork.

    Watch it again.

    THERE ARE A FEW TOMOE'S in those 2 clips. Very few. And this wasn't it.

    I love Judo as much as the next guy - but please don't be apologist on this one.


    It takes a long time to develop a good standing throw that's difficult to counter, but tomoe - well, it take a while to learn to use for offense, but there's liitle chance of giving up the ippon on counter.

    So, what you see in that bit is the coutner to an attempted tomoe-nage.



    Well, they're both just subsets of judo :)
    Which is just a sub-set of Jiu Jitsu. Ad nauseum.


    It's high school judo from the 20's - it is primitive.
    Just in case you were wondering - that 'high school judo' style would abso - fucking - lutely own Judo today. Why? Because Judo today is weak.

    I love Judo. But listening to Judoka try to, on the one hand embrace Kosen Judo as the equivelant of BJJ, and on the other hand completely be completely unable to grasp the fact that Judo today has so little in common with Kosen or BJJ.
  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 8:04pm

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     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    So, what you see in that bit is the coutner to an attempted tomoe-nage.
    I agree, notice how the deffender enters and reaps the left leg of the attacker with his right leg while pushing him to the ground (i'm talking about the first technique in the video; about 4:18).
    Last edited by DCS; 4/30/2006 8:07pm at .
  3. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 8:37pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Depending on the dojo will depend upon the quality of the groundfighting. There is almost no chance of a Judo club to be as skilled as a BJJ club unless you train with KomLock Koji in Tokyo.

    I agree with Yrkoon on the current Judo is much weaker as of late. There is far too many stand ups in most competitions and it stems from the fact that a lot of refs are unfamiliar with what progression in newaza looks like. Hell, some people treat ground fighting like its what guys do to win when their throws suck.

    I find the local shiai's have been much better as far as letting newaza continue. There are quite a few senior guys that ref that are good on the ground and will let the ground fight continue for a while.

    Stand ups are about as stupid as the no slamming rule in BJJ:pottytrai
  4. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 11:38pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    Stand ups are about as stupid as the no slamming rule in BJJ:pottytrai
    In a way, I agree with this. By the time you're a blue belt (or are a 6 month white belt, but let's be generous) in BJJ, you should know better than to let someone pick you up in your guard. In fact, you should know how to make them pay dearly for attempting to slam you out of guard, a triangle, or an armbar. If you really get down to it, that's a fairly important skill to have "on t3h str33t." Not that I care.

    One thing: At least in the regional tournaments, we are allowed to suplex, throw, and generally slam the hell out of one another on the takedown. Slamming is generally only a no-no if you pick someone up off the ground and slam them.

    At my club, you can slam out of the guard all you want, assuming you aren't trying to end your training partner's life. But if you try it, expect to get swept and/or leg locked.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  5. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 9:41am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    GET REAL.

    Watch those first few minutes again.
    Actually, I've watched the videos several times - got a copy back in 2000; a translation of the Japanese was posted on Judo-L about that time.

    But I've also got a few other references. Just to provide the historical context, from
    Ohashi's "A Guide to Judo Grppling Techniques"
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohashi
    Grappling techniques - the first stage.
    How to Overthrow You Opponent.
    Note: It must be said at the outset that it is forbidden in judo bouts
    a) to pull the opponent down at the start of the match, and
    b) to seize hime by the leg when he is in a standing position with the intention of throwing him down.

    1. In the case of the Right Natural Standing Posture, grasp the outside of the opponent's right sleeve with the left hand and with the right hand grasp his right collar firmly. Push out the opponent's lower belly or left groin with the rigth foot and pull him down onto his back with both hands, propelling him forwards. At the same time, with your left foot drawyour opponent's leg inwards, thus turning him over onto your left side.
    This is a tomoe-nage attack, although today it would be recognized as yoko-tomoe and not hon-tomoe.

    The reference I cite may be the only contemporary guide to KOSEN style - Ohashi refers to his days as a member of the Matsue High School judo club, in the mid-1920's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    That was not a throw attempt. That was not a 'false throw'. That was a weak ass guard drag. False tomoe-nage. LOL.



    Just in case you weren't watching...that wasn't a throw attempt. That was simply dragging the opponent into groundwork.

    Watch it again.

    THERE ARE A FEW TOMOE'S in those 2 clips. Very few. And this wasn't it.
    Perhaps this is just a minor quibble. Dragging the opponent into groundwork, yes. But using an attempted tomoe-nage. That is KOSEN style, and a quite common method for entering groundwork in the context of judo contest rules - see Feldenkrais' "Higher Judo - Groundwork" for similar entries. Or Kashiwazaki's "Tomoe-Nage"


    As far as being weak, did you not understand what you were watching? This is an instructional video, not competition. At that point in the video, the technique being demonstrated is the counter to an attempted newaza entry as described above - it's not supposed to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I love Judo as much as the next guy - but please don't be apologist on this one.
    Love it or hate it, I don't care. I'm simply stating the history and cutlure of KOSEN based on sources other than the video.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Which is just a sub-set of Jiu Jitsu. Ad nauseum.
    Don't be so sensitive - that was tongue-in-cheek - didn't you see the smiley?


    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Just in case you were wondering - that 'high school judo' style would abso - fucking - lutely own Judo today. Why? Because Judo today is weak.
    And you say this from experience? There are still universities in Japan teaching the KOSEN style - I dont' see that they're doing any better or worse than other universities.

    So are you trying to understand the history of judo, or are you just another BJJ nutrider looking for an excuse to bash judo? Seems to me you're awful quick to go there - I never said anything about the quality of KOSEN, only that it was part of the Japanese school system. Historical fact, not opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I love Judo. But listening to Judoka try to, on the one hand embrace Kosen Judo as the equivelant of BJJ, and on the other hand completely be completely unable to grasp the fact that Judo today has so little in common with Kosen or BJJ.
    Were did this come from? I certainly never said KOSEN is equivalent to BJJ. As far as the relation between KOSEN and judo - it's simple - KOSEN is judo, anything else is historical revisionism.

    Find any modern judo book emphasizing ne-waza (Kashiwazaki's "Osaekomi" is a good one; it also includes a section on KOSEN) - you'll pretty much the same techniques as in the video. KOSEN didn't simply disappear, it got assimilated.

    Not just saying that to sound good - a lot of the entries and counters shown in the video were what I was being taught, back when I first started judo in '89. The second tournament I entered; my weight class was won by a guy using tomoe-nage to enter into newaza.
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2006 7:25am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It must be said at the outset that it is forbidden in judo bouts
    a) to pull the opponent down at the start of the match,
    I havn't started judo yet, but does this mean that you can't pull guard?
  7. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2006 7:36am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I havn't started judo yet, but does this mean that you can't pull guard?
    I believe they call that 'self-ippon'.

    By which I mean 'no'.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 5/02/2006 7:39am at .
  8. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/02/2006 2:45pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Has any of you seen these same videos translated into English. I've been wanting to buy them for quite sometime, but anytime I see them available on the net, there is a warning the vids are in Japanese.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  9. MEGALEF is offline

    Still digging on James Brown

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    Posted On:
    5/02/2006 3:48pm


     Style: BJJ & Judo (1k)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I noticed how they use a very mobile variant of side control after passing guard. Just sitting up pretty straight and blocking the hip with the knee, then they look for grips for whatever attack they're making and make their move. I don't think I've seen much of that in BJJ.
  10. dakotajudo is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/03/2006 6:22pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn
    I believe they call that 'self-ippon'.
    As far as I know, there is no such thing.

    From the IJF rules (http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee.php), the criteria for ippon
    When a contestant with control throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed.
    There is some amount of referee discretion on this, however. The control part, for example. If you go down to your back into guard, of your own will but because your opponent has gotten you off-balance, the referee may score ippon for your opponent, if it appears that he has control of the technique. Or, if he takes control of the action in response to your attempt at a technique - sacrifice (I was the benficiary of such a call once - my opponent started tani-otoshi, but I turned just enough into an ouchi to get the judges call) or pulling guard.

    The referee may also call a penalty on an attempted guard pull - but the rules give some leeway on this as well.

    I've seen people pull guard many times in judo tournaments; I can't say I've seen it penalized or scored ippon. Usually the refs give a bit of time for the something to happen, then restart, with no score.
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