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  1. MEGALEF is offline

    Still digging on James Brown

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 2:44am


     Style: BJJ & Judo (1k)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Kosen Judo clips

    Found these here clips of old men grappling. I wonder what's up all the failed guard-pulling but I guess it's just demonstration.
    Anyway, I thought they were interesting and wanted to share. Perhaps some japanese speaking fellow can tell us more about them.
    Clip 1
    Clip 2
  2. nerveasian is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 2:16pm


     Style: Getting mounted

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They're not really "pulling guard," those are just failed tomoe nage attempts.
  3. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 2:47pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The first looks like pulling guard to me.
    More human than human is our motto.
  4. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 3:24pm

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     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was really digging it.

    Vid#1 7 min in shows how NOT to pull guard. The guy doesn't have control of the arm side that he sticks his foot in - AND the top guy just passes to knee on belly. Classic BJJ-style stuff.

    (Hint: Proper guard pulling should include controlling the arm on the side you are going to make hip contact with, else your foot will simply be shoved across and you be passed faster than you can say KIMURA!)


    The Jujigatame armbar at 9min is goodtoo. He hits it at 45 degree angle. My only complaint is if you are going to keep one foot in the armpit when executing you probably want to grab the leg. At the angle it is easier to get out of this one.

    Halfguard sweep at 12min wasn't too bad. I use this one on lighter guys.

    The turnover at 13 min looks interesting. Push one way and then roll the other way. I don't think I have used this one.


    Honestly I see so many similarities between Kosen and BJJ it isn't funny. It is just that BJJ is a bit more polished in its technical finese. I won't say primitive. But definately lacking in the fluidity and detail that BJJ has. It is definately the missing link between Judo and BJJ today.
  5. Neildo is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 3:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tl;dw. 26 minutes? damn!

    however, found this right under one of the judo clips.

    OMGWTFLMAO!

    Weird. and NSFW. and I'm still laughing.

    Sorry for the derail. Please continue.
    :new_all_c
  6. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 3:43pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I was really digging it.

    Vid#1 7 min in shows how NOT to pull guard. The guy doesn't have control of the arm side that he sticks his foot in - AND the top guy just passes to knee on belly. Classic BJJ-style stuff.

    (Hint: Proper guard pulling should include controlling the arm on the side you are going to make hip contact with, else your foot will simply be shoved across and you be passed faster than you can say KIMURA!)


    The Jujigatame armbar at 9min is goodtoo. He hits it at 45 degree angle. My only complaint is if you are going to keep one foot in the armpit when executing you probably want to grab the leg. At the angle it is easier to get out of this one.

    Halfguard sweep at 12min wasn't too bad. I use this one on lighter guys.

    The turnover at 13 min looks interesting. Push one way and then roll the other way. I don't think I have used this one.


    Honestly I see so many similarities between Kosen and BJJ it isn't funny. It is just that BJJ is a bit more polished in its technical finese. I won't say primitive. But definately lacking in the fluidity and detail that BJJ has. It is definately the missing link between Judo and BJJ today.
    Hehe, yeah.
    Kosen Judo just makes me think "WTF happened in between?"
    More human than human is our motto.
  7. nerveasian is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2006 4:50pm


     Style: Getting mounted

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, upon further examination you guys are right in almost all cases about the guard pulling. I guess I'm just used to seeing people give at least a token effort at tomoe nage before throwing themselves on their backs in judo.

    I was pleasantly surprised to see the omoplata, and I LOL'd at taking the back from both top and bottom of kamishiho gatame (north/south) - that's getting tried ASAP.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 9:32am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How many of you guys understand that Kosen Judo is Kodokan Juod played under different rules? (ie what you see in the vids was taught at the Kodokan as well)
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  9. dakotajudo is offline
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    Judo Instructor

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 10:13am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    I was really digging it.

    Vid#1 7 min in shows how NOT to pull guard. The guy doesn't have control of the arm side that he sticks his foot in - AND the top guy just passes to knee on belly. Classic BJJ-style stuff.
    Not pulling guard - it's a false tomoe-nage.

    You must remember that KOSEN judo is a style of competition from the 1920s, and reflects the rules of that era; at the time, you could be penalized for simpy dragging an opponent into groundwork, so you needed to use something that looked like a throw - and may even work as a throw.

    It helps to consider the cultures of KOSEN - it's named for the acronym (hence all capitals) of a group of high schools - kinda like a conference. These schools held judo comeptitions amongst themselves.

    One of the reasons that KOSEN judo started to emphasize groundwork is that, under judo rules of the time, an underclassman could hope to force a draw upon an upperclass opponent by taking the fight to the ground, instead of remaining standing and losing by ippon throw. Given a short period to train varsity athletes, it's quicker to develop ground defense than standing offense skills.

    It takes a long time to develop a good standing throw that's difficult to counter, but tomoe - well, it take a while to learn to use for offense, but there's liitle chance of giving up the ippon on counter.

    So, what you see in that bit is the coutner to an attempted tomoe-nage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    Honestly I see so many similarities between Kosen and BJJ it isn't funny.
    Well, they're both just subsets of judo :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    It is just that BJJ is a bit more polished in its technical finese. I won't say primitive. But definately lacking in the fluidity and detail that BJJ has.
    It's high school judo from the 20's - it is primitive.

    Take a look at pretty much any sport - ost will have more fluidity and technical detail in the modern versions, compared to even a decade or two ago. Add to that, BJJ has only gained widespread popularity in the last 10-15 years. Consider clips of Helio compared to modern BJJ, or even what Royce did in the first couple UFC's.

    I've got some wrestling books from that past; the same difference in detail is also lacking.

    That's the thing about a competition-based, non-traditional art - you get more and more people trying to beat each other, the style evolves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yrkoon9
    It is definately the missing link between Judo and BJJ today.
    I wouldn't call it a link - BJJ and KOSEN are two related, yet different, directions judo could have gone. Variety is good.

    EDIT: I have been a bit misleading - while I tend to think of KOSEN as high-school judo, the KOSEN system did include universities.
    Last edited by dakotajudo; 4/30/2006 10:49am at .
  10. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 10:22am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    How many of you guys understand that Kosen Judo is Kodokan Juod played under different rules? (ie what you see in the vids was taught at the Kodokan as well)
    Well from what I've seen in Judo clubs over here, it's NOT taught anymore. Only top level Judoka over here have any knowledge of say an omoplata. Very few if any teach the actual wide range of Judo

    Kosen Judo is a sort of representative for how it was, regardless if the Kodokan was doing exactly the same.
    More human than human is our motto.
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