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  1. Steve is offline
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    The gift that keeps on giving

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 2:57am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't mess with NZ.

    Once Were Warriors

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

    Made me scared to drink in NZ.

    Unfounded, very nice people.
  2. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 3:17am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sfe
    Unfounded, very nice people.
    What about Ikken?
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  3. UpaLumpa is offline
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    Exasperated.

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 9:40am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    I haven't read any of Wolfram. What's the problem with him?
    Raving megalomaniac. Basically takes sole credit for self-organization and cellular automata
    I'm not entirely sure what you mean. Can you think of an example (e.g. article, book chapter)?
    Don't remember any names specifically (though Wolfram is guilty of doing so, I don't blame complexity theorists for him anymore than I blame philosophers for Ruse). I've got copies of a few chapters in my office and will track down some names. As I recall though it was more of a vague aftertaste that there was a misunderstanding among complexity theorists about what evolution entailed.
    Goodwin focuses on the production of variety, though constrained by the dynamic stuctural properties of the matter itself (i.e. not solely determined by DNA). It is an attempt to show the 'stuff' of life as inherently dynamic and autopoietic, rather as than 'brute and stupid' atoms arranged by selection.
    This is somewhat along the lines of what I was talking about. Selection doesn't typically do the arranging of the variants. Rather it selects from among the variants.
    I do think there are emergent properties that exist at a macro scale also (e.g. ecological and social systems), and these properties are best appreciated by different methological principles.
    Unfortunately I'm not aware that such methogologies have been developed. Instead most of what is done in this respect (at least within ecology) has been the application of post-hoc explanations. Then you fall into the problem of matching games.

    Macroecology is rife with this and then otherwise good scientists act as proponents for their posthoc explanation. Rigor is lacking.
    However, I am skeptical of wholesale attempts to import biological science into the social sciences and humanities (whether on the right-wing 'meme' side or the left-wing 'complexity' side). Yes, not a panacea at all - nothing is, not even a brand spanking new ontology.
    Consider me ignorant of such attempts, and generally unconcerned.
    Yes, very important as an account of self-produced novelty.
    Lenski's work has always impressed me. He effectively started at least one new field while improving the ability to apply direct empiricism to evolutionary biology and as an indirect benifit nukes many of the ID/Creationist crowd's arguments.

    Then, while philosophers of science, popular writers on science (e.g. Dawkins) and mainstream evolutionary biologists are running around like headless chickens showing "yes you can reduce [random new IrC/ID example]" Lenski effectively says "you're all stupid".
    Last edited by UpaLumpa; 5/24/2006 9:43am at .
  4. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 9:43am

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    Quote Originally Posted by War Phalange
    I want to go to NZ. Over here, we have to go to school AND work. And nobody gives a ****, because they think "It's just school. It's not like you have to work full time or anything." When you finish my Diff EQ's homework, then we can talk, you piece of ****. And, of course, there is homework added to school. Oh, and you have to PAY for it yourself. And then there's not making nearly as much as you should because it's only a part time job.

    I'm proud to be an American.
    ODEs or Non linear?
  5. Poop Loops is offline
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    OOOOOOOOOOAAARRGGHH RLY?

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 2:38pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, that was last-quarter, and it was ODE's. This quarter I'm taking Linear Algebra. Yeah yeah, but it's required and the last math class available at my community college.

    That class was still a pain in the ass, though. I don't know how I got out of it with a 3.7
  6. alex is offline
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    STOP POSTING!

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    Posted On:
    5/24/2006 5:14pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by sfe
    Don't mess with NZ.

    Once Were Warriors

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...v=glance&n=130

    Made me scared to drink in NZ.

    Unfounded, very nice people.
    depends where you go, and is actually explained in the movie to an extent. The maori who moved to the cities (mostly auckland) from their homelands didnt quite get what they bargained for and a lot of them ended up poor and more importantly without an identity. In the movie you can see the contrast between Beth Hekes family who are more "traditional" and still live on their marae and their attitude towards Jake Heke. When your own culture hates you and so do the people who invaded your country and attempted to exterminate your culture, it can probably get a bit much. Also if you want to see the "happy ending" to this story watch "What becomes of the broken hearted" its an inferior film but it helps get rid of the bad taste that the first one leaves.

    Where I grew up in the north we mostly lived with poor polynesian and maori families but the attitude was quite different, it was a friendly community. we were welcomed and no one made a big deal out of it. the attitude in Auckland, where the movie is set, is different. I would have to be fucking crazy to walk through some of those suburbs at any time of the day, simply because im white.

    Oh and because this is a MA forum- the bit where the gang is using muay thai to beat the crap out of Jakes son isn't as hokey as it might seem. a -lot- of gang members in auckland practice MT- we recently had a few guys at a fight night at the headhunters HQ, one of the largest gangs in south auckland.
  7. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    5/26/2006 7:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by UpaLumpa
    Raving megalomaniac. Basically takes sole credit for self-organization and cellular automata Don't remember any names specifically (though Wolfram is guilty of doing so, I don't blame complexity theorists for him anymore than I blame philosophers for Ruse). I've got copies of a few chapters in my office and will track down some names. As I recall though it was more of a vague aftertaste that there was a misunderstanding among complexity theorists about what evolution entailed.
    OK. I look forward to hearing more.

    Unfortunately I'm not aware that such methogologies have been developed. Instead most of what is done in this respect (at least within ecology) has been the application of post-hoc explanations. Then you fall into the problem of matching games.
    Sure - the 'just so' stories continue. I wasn't thinking of ecology, though. I had in mind societies as emergent systems (and disciplines like sociology as developing methodologies appropriate to these systems). Bear in mind that this idea of 'emergence' is not necessarily coming from science, but from the philosophical tradition of Lloyd Morgan, Alexander, Whitehead, and so on - it is not an attempt to graft science onto the humanities (although it is rightly informed by science).

    Lenski's work has always impressed me. He effectively started at least one new field while improving the ability to apply direct empiricism to evolutionary biology and as an indirect benifit nukes many of the ID/Creationist crowd's arguments.

    Then, while philosophers of science, popular writers on science (e.g. Dawkins) and mainstream evolutionary biologists are running around like headless chickens showing "yes you can reduce [random new IrC/ID example]" Lenski effectively says "you're all stupid".
    Nicely put. It is an elegant response to both vulgar reductionism and the desperately willful dimwittery of ID.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
    click here to order on Amazon

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