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  1. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 4:55am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    You will get penalized for inactivity standing as well. "Going into a deep stance" and being purely defensively will be penalized very quickly. You need to be aggressive on your feet as well. This may be grip fighting but that's not necessarily defensive. As for your "3 second grip" proposal if you wanted to make it similar to the ne-waza, no progress after three second rule, I'd be fine with that. If you're a decent fighter standing you don't need to sit holding the same grip for three seconds at a time. you should be looking to improve your position, move your opponent or attack.

    The fact that it's a primarily standing sport is why the rules are the way they are. People who enjoy ne-waza should get their ne-waza enjoyment at the club or in a BJJ tournament. People who want to win judo matches with ne-waza need to adapt their game to the rules of the sport. It is quite possible, I'd say I probably won 30-40% of my matches on the ground over my career, usually with sangaku from the top.
    My instructor once told me, that if you're still keeping the same grip after 5 seconds, you've wasted your chance and should switch or disengage. This was not the point though.


    But see the attitude you're giving here is what I'm annoyed at. It wasn't a primarily standing sport according to history. But rules have been added constantly and changed constantly. It has BECOME primarily standing sport, that is right, but that doesn't mean it can't be changed again. I see ippons being awarded from nowhere and I keep thinking that people can't afford to get thrown with a bad throw and then proceed to newaza because the second your forced to the mat the ref calls ippon. And if you actually tumble down there you are stood up after a few seconds. Why bother with newaza at all if the rules stop it before it can run it's course?

    And you quickly dismiss it saying that those who want newaza can get their freak on somewhere else. Why? It's Judo man, believe it or not. The brazilians had to learn it from somewhere. But Judo doesn't want it anymore. I have to admit I find it a bit silly. It's like saying it doesn't belong there.

    My point of comparison wasn't to say that everything should be the same. It was to mention that the two parts are quite different in strategy and execution. Trying to apply ones rules to the other is difficult, but it has apparently been done. Look at BJJ competitions where noone wants to get the worse position on the ground. The standup is extremely boring because they just run around waiting. And there's no penalty and most aren't good enough standing to overwhelm the other. This is the exact opposite of newaza in Judo. Where the rules make it hard or even pointless to perform for those who can, and just ends up as a boring stalemate for those who can't.

    I'm not saying a couple of shits on bullshido should sit down and solve all problems in the world of judo. I just find the attitude and rules destroying a part of Judo. But if they want to give groundfighting up alltogether then that's none of my business.
    More human than human is our motto.
  2. Meager is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 7:01am


     Style: BJJ & MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kosen
    shitty ref, thats how I explain it, and i'll admit thats a problem in the u.s., in my opinnion because so many of them weren't ever real competitors but just dojo players.

    which leads me to the question, in bjj are the refs all ex competitors or what, granted I know bjj is less subjective than olympic judo, seeing as I never here complaints of poor reffing outside of Judo
    BJJers complain about refs all the time.
  3. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 10:17am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    My instructor once told me, that if you're still keeping the same grip after 5 seconds, you've wasted your chance and should switch or disengage. This was not the point though.
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical


    But see the attitude you're giving here is what I'm annoyed at. It wasn't a primarily standing sport according to history. But rules have been added constantly and changed constantly. It has BECOME primarily standing sport, that is right, but that doesn't mean it can't be changed again. I see ippons being awarded from nowhere and I keep thinking that people can't afford to get thrown with a bad throw and then proceed to newaza because the second your forced to the mat the ref calls ippon. And if you actually tumble down there you are stood up after a few seconds. Why bother with newaza at all if the rules stop it before it can run it's course?

    And you quickly dismiss it saying that those who want newaza can get their freak on somewhere else. Why? It's Judo man, believe it or not. The brazilians had to learn it from somewhere. But Judo doesn't want it anymore. I have to admit I find it a bit silly. It's like saying it doesn't belong there.


    The attitude I'm giving is a bit of a reaction to the attitude of "judo rules suck, I'd rule if I had time on the ground" that I'm percieving in a few of the posts. I'm not saying that judo rules are perfect but I am saying that you still can be successful in ne-waza. I'm saying that because I have been. You simply need to adapt your game. Judo rules reward aggressive, from the top attacking in ne-waza with dynamic progression. That's what you need to do to be successfull in competitive sport judo ne-waza.

    I'm not sure what you're saying with the "ippons out of nowhere" comment. If you're thrown to the mat on your back with a "bad throw" you'll lose. I don't know what you'd constitute as a bad throw vs. a good throw but either can produce ippons if you land on your back. If you want to do well in judo competitions you need to improve your standing. Ne-waza alone is not sufficient to win, just like standing wouldn't help you much in a BJJ competition. If you want to use your ne-waza in judo comps, practice dragging your opponent down with grips and attacking from the top position. That's where you'll be given the most time and it's not that hard to learn those type of takedowns (with the right teacher to show you of course).

    Ne-waza is a part of judo as whole and a part of sport judo. It's just different than BJJ. You can still be very effective with it if you adapt your style appropriately. I have been to the point where when I was 16-17 at regional comps my coach wouldn't let me do ne-waza in my matches with juniors to give me a challenge. There are a few dominiant ne-waza judo players out there, JP Kantin was one in Canada for many years. I believe the Nastula was also a ne-waza specialist at the olympic level.

    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    My point of comparison wasn't to say that everything should be the same. It was to mention that the two parts are quite different in strategy and execution. Trying to apply ones rules to the other is difficult, but it has apparently been done. Look at BJJ competitions where noone wants to get the worse position on the ground. The standup is extremely boring because they just run around waiting. And there's no penalty and most aren't good enough standing to overwhelm the other. This is the exact opposite of newaza in Judo. Where the rules make it hard or even pointless to perform for those who can, and just ends up as a boring stalemate for those who can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical

    I'm not saying a couple of shits on bullshido should sit down and solve all problems in the world of judo. I just find the attitude and rules destroying a part of Judo. But if they want to give groundfighting up alltogether then that's none of my business.


    Your BJJ standing example isn't that different than what judo ne-waza withuot time limits might be. Given unlimited time on the ground you could have long stalemates as well since judoka don't train ne-waza as hard. You could be on the bottom covering up for a long time if there was no standup and this would turn matches into yawn fests as well. The stand up rule was put in to keep matches at a faster pace and reward aggressive, dynamic styles of judo that are most spectator friendly. Judo is on the verge of losing it's Olympic status so they're scrambling around a bit to keep it visually appealling (colored gis) and exciting for non-judoka. Big throws are more exciting to most non-judoka/BJJers than subs are.

    Again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, that's just how it is. I'd love to see a happy medium with more time for ne-waza but that's not where we're at. It doesn't mean ne-waza is useless or not a part of judo though, you just need to adapt to be successfull.
  4. kipdynamite is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 11:05am


     Style: judo, boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I practice Judo, we are a recreational club with a couple of competitive judoka and one guy who does mma. Our instructor has us do groundwork with a progressive mindset, we do not get stood up after five seconds and generally go for three minute rounds on the ground.
    My only complaint with judo in general is that about 50% of the throws are worthless. case in point kouci gari, it is redundant and it leaves you open to getting dropped by any mediocor wrestler.
    As for competitive clubs they seem to be very hung up on scoring the point and notpreparing for combat, it seems a lot like the way tae kwon do has gone over the years.
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 12:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Where I go, there is an emphasis on athleticism and on transitioning from a throw whether be ippon or not into newaza with no time limit (unless you get pinned, in which case you have 25 seconds), which I find great. But what I hate balls is that there is still the emphasis on giving the back - I go along with it, but in my mind, I just fucking hate when I'm being told to turn by back to defend myself and avoid being pinned. That's my main gripe, which bothers me a lot, but oh well, when in Rome, do as Romans.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

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  6. kosen is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 1:01pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JUDO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Neil adams, Jimmy Pedro, Pawel Nastula, Flavio Canto

    Judo NeWaza experts, Judo newaza really is something between bjj and folkstyle wrestling, in that you're often fishing for the sub but the guys who consistently pull it off do it from the top, and they do it from cracking the turtle.
  7. Sophist is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2006 6:23am


     Style: Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kipdynamite
    My only complaint with judo in general is that about 50% of the throws are worthless. case in point kouci gari, it is redundant and it leaves you open to getting dropped by any mediocor wrestler.
    This is stupid. Really fucking stupid. Ko uchi gari, in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, is a really dangerous throw in its own right and even more valuable as a set-up for other stuff. All this tells me is that you've never fought someone with a good ko uchi. You'll note from the study here:

    http://www.judoinfo.com/weers1.htm

    that ko uchi gari is the most commonly used throw among the top players. It's also the one of the throws Lloyd Irvin credits with helping him capture the 2004-2005 BJJ World Championship:

    http://www.lloydirvin.com/worldchamp/index.html

    It's ashiwaza. It depends on your timing. But the guys who have that timing are obscenely dangerous with their foot sweeps.

    Every judo player ends up with a small subset of the available throws that really work for them. Maybe for certain common throws there's no-one in your dojo that's that good with them. But, believe me, somewhere there will be. And almost any decent judo dojo should have someone with a dangerous footsweep game.
  8. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2006 1:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kipdynamite
    My only complaint with judo in general is that about 50% of the throws are worthless. case in point kouci gari, it is redundant and it leaves you open to getting dropped by any mediocor wrestler.

    Huh?

    Dude I use Ko Uchi very effectively. I am not sure how you are doing it but I don't get dropped. I am guessing you are basing this off the extreme right stance that has you jumping in to clip with the right leg and this would just be an invitation for a wrestler to grab a single.

    Take a look at Jacare and you will see an extremely good use of Ko Uchi.

    Instead of going into an extreme sided stance try pulling your opponent around to the side you are strong. It isn't that a particular technique is weak - it is that you haven't found the application for it.

    My Ko Uchi, O Uchi, and Uchi Mata combination is strong as hell. Wrestler or no it finds many victims.
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