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  1. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2006 8:05pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The thing about judo competitive groundwork is to avoid a mate you need to show progress. Once you're locked in a position and not progressing you have probably 5 seconds or so to improve your position or you get stood up. When I was competing I would pretty much train my ne-waza only from the top. There was no point in doing anything from the bottom because you're putting yourself at risk and they were generally low-percentage moves from the bottom because you'll get mate before you can land them. From the bottom I would just lock on a limb and wait for the mate.

    Offensively from the top I did lots of moves that showed progression. Sink something, roll your opponent over, change your position a bit, that's how you get time on the ground. Half-sinking an armlock and getting in a tug of war that's static for a few seconds is how you get stood up.

    I'm not saying it's good or bad particularly, that's how it is. Judo is a primarily stand-up sport in competition. Looking back, that style of groundwork really stunted my growth in ne-waza. I'm much better and more dynamic now in club training. I don't think I'd do anything different in competitions though if I were to compete again though since like I said, you don't have the time and it's riskier.

    To use your ne-waza skills most effectively, train on entries from the top. People will turtle so you need to work on moves where you move your opponent and make definate visible progress as you work. That should buy you a bit more time.
  2. kosen is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2006 9:32am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JUDO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to agree with judo bum, judo newaza today is not bjj by any means, it is not methodical nor does it allow for a systamatic progression from move to move.

    Check out flavio canto's bronze medal win at this years NYO, (youtube) white drops for sumi, canto posts out of the throw, ends up top and passed gaurd and quicly secures the juji as white tries to roll out of pin, the exchange lasts all of 10 seconds once they hit the ground.
  3. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2006 5:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    The thing about judo competitive groundwork is to avoid a mate you need to show progress. Once you're locked in a position and not progressing you have probably 5 seconds or so to improve your position or you get stood up. When I was competing I would pretty much train my ne-waza only from the top. There was no point in doing anything from the bottom because you're putting yourself at risk and they were generally low-percentage moves from the bottom because you'll get mate before you can land them. From the bottom I would just lock on a limb and wait for the mate.

    Offensively from the top I did lots of moves that showed progression. Sink something, roll your opponent over, change your position a bit, that's how you get time on the ground. Half-sinking an armlock and getting in a tug of war that's static for a few seconds is how you get stood up.

    I'm not saying it's good or bad particularly, that's how it is. Judo is a primarily stand-up sport in competition. Looking back, that style of groundwork really stunted my growth in ne-waza. I'm much better and more dynamic now in club training. I don't think I'd do anything different in competitions though if I were to compete again though since like I said, you don't have the time and it's riskier.

    To use your ne-waza skills most effectively, train on entries from the top. People will turtle so you need to work on moves where you move your opponent and make definate visible progress as you work. That should buy you a bit more time.
    The problem with this is .. obviously... that this rule is limited to newaza. Apparently, people can grip, go into a deep stance and avoid throws until kingdom comes. Let's give a 3 second limit to gripping. Don't throw within 3 seconds after gripping and you have to let go and start the entire match over. See how dumb that feels? That's how people who enjoy newaza think about the incredibly short time given unless something immediately happens.

    It makes for insane spurts of random crappling. And let me tell you, it takes the JU right out of the game.
    More human than human is our motto.
  4. HoratioHooah is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2006 5:46pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    The problem with this is .. obviously... that this rule is limited to newaza. Apparently, people can grip, go into a deep stance and avoid throws until kingdom comes. Let's give a 3 second limit to gripping. Don't throw within 3 seconds after gripping and you have to let go and start the entire match over. See how dumb that feels? That's how people who enjoy newaza think about the incredibly short time given unless something immediately happens.

    It makes for insane spurts of random crappling. And let me tell you, it takes the JU right out of the game.
    Here in Hawaii, the ref's will give shido if they remotely think you're not going to try to throw. I've seen guys get shido when they didn't have an opportunity to throw because their opponents would not relent on the offense.

    BUT I do see your point and agree with it completely. I wish Judo didn't hate on newaza so much.
  5. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/01/2006 10:44am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    The problem with this is .. obviously... that this rule is limited to newaza. Apparently, people can grip, go into a deep stance and avoid throws until kingdom comes. Let's give a 3 second limit to gripping. Don't throw within 3 seconds after gripping and you have to let go and start the entire match over. See how dumb that feels? That's how people who enjoy newaza think about the incredibly short time given unless something immediately happens.

    It makes for insane spurts of random crappling. And let me tell you, it takes the JU right out of the game.
    You will get penalized for inactivity standing as well. "Going into a deep stance" and being purely defensively will be penalized very quickly. You need to be aggressive on your feet as well. This may be grip fighting but that's not necessarily defensive. As for your "3 second grip" proposal if you wanted to make it similar to the ne-waza, no progress after three second rule, I'd be fine with that. If you're a decent fighter standing you don't need to sit holding the same grip for three seconds at a time. you should be looking to improve your position, move your opponent or attack.

    The fact that it's a primarily standing sport is why the rules are the way they are. People who enjoy ne-waza should get their ne-waza enjoyment at the club or in a BJJ tournament. People who want to win judo matches with ne-waza need to adapt their game to the rules of the sport. It is quite possible, I'd say I probably won 30-40% of my matches on the ground over my career, usually with sangaku from the top.
  6. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 8:11am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay hows this one - had a few grading matches earlier, in one of them my opponent went for a double leg, i sprawled, he turtled, i pulled his arm out and rolled over for a juji armbar. He was smart and grabbed his lapel so I couldnt force the arm out, i sat up and tried to force it but it became apparent that i couldnt. I swung my legs under me and wrapped round him for side control.... and the ref called matte. Explain that one.
  7. kosen is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 2:14pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: JUDO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    shitty ref, thats how I explain it, and i'll admit thats a problem in the u.s., in my opinnion because so many of them weren't ever real competitors but just dojo players.

    which leads me to the question, in bjj are the refs all ex competitors or what, granted I know bjj is less subjective than olympic judo, seeing as I never here complaints of poor reffing outside of Judo
  8. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 2:34pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Das Moose
    Okay hows this one - had a few grading matches earlier, in one of them my opponent went for a double leg, i sprawled, he turtled, i pulled his arm out and rolled over for a juji armbar. He was smart and grabbed his lapel so I couldnt force the arm out, i sat up and tried to force it but it became apparent that i couldnt. I swung my legs under me and wrapped round him for side control.... and the ref called matte. Explain that one.
    Could be shitty refing as the above poster identified and probably was. The other explanation I could see is that matte was called as you were swinging out and into side control. The ref would've seen you attempting to force the juji, seen you weren't getting anywhere and called it just before you moved position. Without seeing the match I can't be sure but I could see something like that happening.

    That illustrates why you need to be dynamic in competitive judo ne-waza. You don't have time to force an armlock once someone's wrapped it up tight. You basically give it a tug, if it doesn't go then transition into another position and keep working. Not ideal I agree but that's the way to buy yourself more time.
  9. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/03/2006 3:43pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fair point. I did take advantage of the referees not knowing what happens in ne-waza at one point, ended up on my front and my opponent went first for a rear naked - i tucked my chin in and cupped my hand round one side of my neck to block that - then a lapel choke - i stuck my other hand in the other side to force the lapel away from my neck - but both he and the ref thought he had it. I got at least ten seconds to breathe very deeply and basically have a lie down. When we got up my opponent was shattered from trying to force it. I was in great shape. :-)
  10. Greese is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2006 4:47am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo and BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    God...this is why I lost a lot of faith in Judo.
    And that's when I figured out that tears couldn't make somebody who was dead alive again. There's another thing to learn about tears, they can't make somebody who doesn't love you any more love you again. It's the same with prayers. I wonder how much of their lives people waste crying and praying to God. If you ask me, the devil makes more sense than God does. I can at least see why people would want him around. It's good to have somebody to blame for the bad stuff they do. Maybe God's there because people get scared of all the bad stuff they do. They figure that God and the Devil are always playing this game of tug-of-war game with them. And they never know which side they're gonna wind up on. I guess that tug-of-war idea explains how sometimes, even when people try to do something good, it still turns out bad.
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