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  1. #21
    Cassius's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Admittedly, my experience is limited to regional tournaments, but no one seems to give a **** how hard you throw someone in any of the tourneys I've been to. I'm sure you'd get DQed if you spiked your opponent on his head or neck, but otherwise, have at it.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

  2. #22

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was watching one of Komlock Koji's tapes and he mentioned that he couldn't utilize Judo tachiwaza.........Dunno why, I don't know if its just in Japan, I don't know if BJJer's spines are made out of Jelly.

    That was what was said. I will say that I am getting pissed at the restrictions on Shiai. I am lucky that every other shiai I will go to in my immediate area will be reffed by someone from my dojo or that is familiar with someone from my dojo. The word of mouth should hopefully let the newaza go a bit farther because everyone seems to be figuring out that I like to rape people on the ground.

    Other peoples asphyxia is my aphrodisiac

  3. #23

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If your getting called on for doing an omoplata (ude sangakugarami), that is simply and utterly WRONG. The move is completley legal, just as ude garami (Kimura or whatever) is irregardless of whether or not it may attack the shoulder in actual practicality, and for you judo bums, thats from multiple PJU C referes.

    (and yes, I've pulled it off in tourney (Judo) and yes i was attacking the shoulder, it just happens to be a widely accepted oversight in the rules)

    And if someone doesn't like it practice, I'm sorry but they probably don't put out in tourneys if they're limiting practice to something other than what the actual match will consist of...*I have no particular problem with rec players playing it safe to protect each other, just stating a simple fact.

  4. #24
    Yrkoon9's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to be clear I have never, ever, ever heard of a 'throwing too hard rule' in BJJ. Ever.

    And just to be even more clear I have competed in just about every single BJJ event imaginable. The Mundials, The Pan Ams, Calif State Championships, Copa Pacifica, etc.

    The only rule about slamming someone is you are not allowed to do it to break guard, or to escape a submission. And even then there are some BJJ tournaments such as the Gracie one that does allow slamming from those positions.

    So I feel this myth is crushed and dispelled.

  5. #25
    JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    meh

    I train what I train because it's the best I can find.

    I think the state of judo reffing is pretty sorry...in my club we play to the very limits of the rules as far as what is an ippon and what submissions you can do.

    We don't condition hard enough, or meet enough nights, but those are other stories.


  6. #26

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found Dave Camarillo talking about the vagueness of judo rules regarding submissions and referees' ignorance of ne-waza. The original question he was answering was about the triangle (sankaku jime), but he talks about armbars and omoplatas too:
    In Judo Sankaku Jime is legal. In either Judo or Jiu-Jitsu you need the arm in and controlled past the elbow to both choke your opponent and secure the position.

    So if I understand what you are saying I think you are mistaken about the rules. If I am mistaken then there is no standard with that rule and here is why: In 2001 I competed in the Italian Grand Prix. It is one of three major Judo tournaments in the country. In the third round of that tournament I was up against a really tough opponent from Russia. I saw his match before mine and felt that if he got a hold of me he would be hard to beat because he was a brawler. Anyway I immediately took the match to the ground with a tomoe nagi and transitioned into an upside down triangle (sankaku jime) and choked him unconscious.

    In another match of mine at the 1997 US Judo Senior Nationals I faced Alex Ottiano in the first round. At that time I was not ranked so I didn't have any seating. This means you could get the toughest opponent right off the bat, and I did. The match was identical to the one in Italy but I transitioned off of a wrestling shot. I went quickly to my guard after he sprawled right into the upside triangle. As he tried to stand up I grabbed his leg and bent his body by pulling his leg and he fell. He tapped when he fell.

    These two matches lead me to believe that either the Sankaku Jime is legal or there is no standard that is followed with this technique. But that is not so surprising. In Korea I was given a Keikoku (a penalty resulting in a half point for my opponent) for attempting a flying arm lock. But I have landed about fifteen in my overall career in Judo. And the only time I have been penalized was in Korea. This could be because I was competing against a Korean but the standard wasn't there.

    BTW: I still arm locked that Korean for the win after I received the penalty…

    Another time I slapped an omoplata on a guy in the senior nationals and he tapped. When I reviewed the tape it looked like the referee was going to penalize me but he seemed to change his mind and awarded me the win. It may have been my acting like I was choking my opponent that gave him doubt…not sure.

    Another time I had a guy in a full on triangle in the US Open of Judo. He was about to go out making sounds and everything. The referee called a "mata" (halt). I would have won the match…

    I have seen many cases where Referees are not consistent with the ruling concerning ne-waza. It is very frustrating and I think it is more out of ignorance than anything else.

  7. #27
    Cassius's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Camarillo
    Another time I slapped an omoplata on a guy in the senior nationals and he tapped. When I reviewed the tape it looked like the referee was going to penalize me but he seemed to change his mind and awarded me the win. It may have been my acting like I was choking my opponent that gave him doubt…not sure.
    This statement made me think the same thing I thought after I saw the Aristocrats joke for the first time: "That's fucked up."

    Who do they get to referee matches? Bitter ex-Judoka that have a pathological hatred of newaza?
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal

  8. #28
    Sophist's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    This statement made me think the same thing I thought after I saw the Aristocrats joke for the first time: "That's fucked up."

    Who do they get to referee matches? Bitter ex-Judoka that have a pathological hatred of newaza?
    In a word, yes.

    At local levels, frequently those who were good judoka go on to become club coaches, and those who, well, sucked, but somehow stuck with it for the social side and still tried to progress through "doing things for judo" instead of competition end up as referees. At least, that's how I've had it explained to me. Of course, that doesn't explain the occasional odd call in higher-level matches where the standard of refereeing is supposedly better.

    It's not just ne-waza that gets shafted. One referee's yuko is another referee's ippon, and heaven help you if you attempt anything but the most clear-cut of sacrifice throws.

  9. #29
    Judobum's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    In a word, yes.

    At local levels, frequently those who were good judoka go on to become club coaches, and those who, well, sucked, but somehow stuck with it for the social side and still tried to progress through "doing things for judo" instead of competition end up as referees. At least, that's how I've had it explained to me. Of course, that doesn't explain the occasional odd call in higher-level matches where the standard of refereeing is supposedly better.

    It's not just ne-waza that gets shafted. One referee's yuko is another referee's ippon, and heaven help you if you attempt anything but the most clear-cut of sacrifice throws.
    I'd have to agree with this above. Good competitors become coaches or just fade out into the club scene. The majority of refs I know, good and bad, were never decent competitors or in some cases have never competed at all. Ideally every referee should be a competant competitor but then we wouldn't have any referees....

    One of the funniest bad ref moments I had was in a tournament at Texas A+M university. I had the guy in sangaku and was pinning him. He kept rolling up a bit, making me expose my front. Every time he did this the referee called toketa (holdown broken). I had him in that pin for about a minute and a half until I got pissed off enough just to roll up and armlock him (which I should've done in the first place but the pin was the higher percentage move for me).

  10. #30
    Das Moose's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Personally the biggest annoyance for me is the non-existent time on the ground. I have *much* better ground skills than standing - in my club there are many players who would completely obliterate me standing but i have no problem tapping. It's probably the BJJ i've done in my MMA classes. Anyway, I know when i compete that my groundwork would be the deciding factor. I had two matches at the competition, first was against a black belt (I am yellow, only been doin judo a few years and never got around to grading as i'm always at work) who threw me with a nice o-soto when i screwed up trying to break his grip. Second was a brown belt, we went back and forth for a while, he tried a tomoe-nage and i got off it, he ended up in my guard and i instinctively went for a kimura. After a second or two when it became apparent i couldn't get it as he'd locked his arms together, i started to think about attacking with something else, and the referee called matte. I probably had all of 5 seconds (and that's being generous) on the ground. In the end he got a good throw and that was me out of the competition.

    I find it annoying because i have tapped judo brown belts before. I think even a rule where if you're not doing anything for more than 10 seconds (and a referee who understands what "not doing anything" actually is) would be of great benefit. I saw many players in that competition turtling up the second they went to the ground and just waiting for the standup. I'd like to see how good their groundwork would be if they were forced to fight on the ground.

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