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  1. rcytrcy01 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2008 7:01pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree Sam. Hargrove preaches honesty and integrity to his students. However, he lied and cheated to get out of paying his debts. In the end, he was found guilty of a crime and it does demonstrate his lack of character.
  2. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2008 10:34pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    First I don't know Frank's race and don't see how its relevant. He declared bankruptcy and tried to hide his assets from his creditors. So this is not a "victimless crime", he got greedy and got caught. Its also a form of fraud and reflects more poorly on his character then if he got in trouble for a barfight, IMO. His actions were criminal AND stupid.
    I know Frank's race and I brought it up Sam. I take ownership of that point, or digression depending on how you feel about it. I feel it is relevant for the reasons stated, we can agree to disagree on this relevance. It is naive to think that a person's background, their socioeconomic background, their associations, etc do not influence to some degree their situation and decisions. It is easy to take the moral high ground as in "this person is absolutely wrong because they broke the law" but it is also a little niave Sam, thats all, I mean you are right in that last sentence with that caveate.

    A lot of guys who are outstanding martial artists on the East Coast community went to prison for a lot worse than trying to hold onto their ride.... that bears mentioning... frankly Frank's little misstep viewed in this context gives it a lot less impetus.
  3. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2008 10:48pm

    hall of famestaff
     

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    Which was one of ten rides :)
  4. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2008 10:29am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
    So we know that Hargroves did something stupid, and we know that if the car had been in that corporation to begin with, like many people are taught to do to protect assets,
    Who taught you that? Jeff Skilling? Playing shell games with the bankruptcy court does not work, especially when you transfer the title the year before the bankruptcy and then transfer it back the year after.

    Bankruptcy law is intended to protect people in a bad spot who are honestly trying to meet their obligations. Trying to hide eight saleable cars, including a Jaguar, is not honest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
    then Hargroves is technically less of a criminal... TECHNICALLY... and de facto less stupid in his actions. Big fucking deal, Hargroves broke the law.
    Yeah, who cares about those pesky laws, anyway? Free Jeff Skilling! Free Bernie Ebbers!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
    I mean I am sorry I am not here to defend Hargroves reflexively
    Odd -- I'm sorry that you ARE apparently here to defend Hargrove reflexively.
  5. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2008 3:06pm

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    Ok fair enough.

    Try to understand this guys. When Frank gave a seminar in Baltimore after the seminar naurally people were socializing a bit. If you had been in the room during social activities you would have been amongst:

    One of the most renowned teachers who later went to prison for distribution of drugs

    More than a few martial artists who were known to be murderers.

    about 3 embezzlers.

    Quite a few radical political activists who had legal problems.
  6. Cy Q. Faunce is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2008 3:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Finding You

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
  7. Frontsight is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 11:28am

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     Style: shorin-ryu

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    :occasion1
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin752
    True, money issues have been Frank Hargrove's fatal flaw. However, I find that many people's personal biases have clouded their judgement of him as a karate-ka and as a person.

    As far as his karate credentials, unquestionable. Ask any of his Okinawan sempai or classmates and they will state this. Also, if you go to Okinawan Karate, by Mark Bishop, it will verify that Frank Hargrove is one of Nakazato Sensei's first generation students. He was the President of the US branch of the Shorinkan, and trained virtually everyone in the U.S. shorinkan today. He is also their senior, and therefore they really should have no comment about him. Most kyoshi in America ignore him and don't mention him at all in a public forum. To all of those students in the shorinkan who are posting disparaging comments about him, if I were your sensei I would be embarrassed by your behavior. You should follow the example of your instructors, and just say nothing.


    To frontsight, you need to adjust your glasses and your hearing aid. In spite of his flaws, Hargrove is extremely articulate, and is fluent in both Japanese and English. The mere fact that he graduated from a Japanese university also substaniates this. All in all, if you personally dislike him, that is understandable. But anyone who is in his presence for 5 minutes can tell that he is very intellegent and has outstanding martial arts skill. However, I will not even attempt to defend anything else other than his karate knowledge, because most of what I know is second hand knowledge and I was not in the shorinkan around the time of his conflict.

    BTW, renshi is a title still recognized by shorinkan bylaws, but members no longer wear renshi belts, nor is there and acknowledgement of a renshi-kai in the US. IMHO, this is done to maintain the structural integrity of the association.

    Well, ronin752, you need to flush-out your headgear and stop viewing Frank through "rose-colored glasses". Based upon my experience with Frank, I would seriously doubt any academic or business creditials he may put forth. For all we know, Frank's graduating from a Japanese university might be another of his lies. He admits flunking-out of a local university during the past few years because "his writings were to spiritual". Go to his website and read his "subprime" attempt at writing. I've read his e-mails and listened to him pontificate his views on history, culture and governement, and was not impressed at all. Ronin 752 and I must have vastly different academic and intellectual standards. At best, Frank is a pseudo-intellectual... in my opinion, a cross between two hucksters: Al Sharpton and Jimmy Swaggard.

    However, the one area we all agree that Frank is expert in is Okinawan Karate. He is one of the best I ever trained under. Frank is a walking Okinawan Karate encyclopedia. His is also a gifted instructor, from whom I learned a great deal. His interpretation of kata changed and greatly improved my karate, even though I come from another branch of Shorin-ryu than Frank. I study his DVD's on a regular basis.


    We as students, and especially Blackbelts, have a duty and an obligation to warn others about the pitfalls of dishonorable and dishonest instructors. Frank deserted his dojo in Newport News, Virginia ...leaving it "high & dry," without any warning to his instructors and students. According to the sensei he left behind and his assistant, Frank also drained the dojo's bank account shortly afterwards. Sadly, the real victims of Frank's desertion are the kids who he let-down and ripped-off.

    Now that Frank has relocated his circus to Hawaii, I do not want up- and -coming karate students there to be preyed-upon, like the ones he left in Virginia. Keeping quiet about Frank's personal conduct is what con-men like Frank hope for in order for them to continue ripping students off. Ronin752 should be embarrassed advocating not speaking-out about karate instructors like Frank. BTW, Frank has been successfully sued by a former student in James City County, Virginia in a warrant -in-debt for failure to honor a contract. The judge in that case must have agreed with Frank's Federal Judge that his organization is a "sham ."
  8. uki is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2008 10:42pm


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    My father new Hardgrove in the 70's and he always said that he would ruin the organization someday.
  9. rcytrcy01 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 9:23am


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    I am quite surprised that anyone who knows Frank Hargrove well would say that he is articulate and intelligent. There have been many times that I have corrected his usage of the English language. If you look at his own website, it is full of grammatical and spelling errors. Of course, many college graduates have poor spelling and grammar. However, I am totally with Frontsight. I have yet to see proof of Frank's degree from any university and doubt that he possesses such a degree from an international university.

    As far as his knowledge of the martial arts, I believe that he WAS indeed the best. Frank has traveled the world and spent a great deal of time in Japan studying with the best. But again, I sincerely believe that during the operation of his last two dojos, he did not care whether anyone learned karate or not. Frank was out to take people's money. He handed out ranks monthly like they were candy just to appease. Now that I have been to another local dojo, I can see how very differently they operate. This instructor takes the art and promotions very seriously. The students do not automatically receive a promotion each month. They must train for so many hours before being able to test, sometimes two to three months out. The testing process itself takes hours. Frank did not test people. Frank's promotions lasted about 30 minutes, long enough to hand out the belts and scoot everyone out of there. To me, having a belt from Frank Hargrove means nothing compared to the work students from other dojos have put in. I'm embarrassed to have ever been associated with Frank.
  10. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2008 10:16am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontsight
    :occasion1


    Well, ronin752, you need to flush-out your headgear and stop viewing Frank through "rose-colored glasses". Based upon my experience with Frank, I would seriously doubt any academic or business creditials he may put forth. For all we know, Frank's graduating from a Japanese university might be another of his lies. He admits flunking-out of a local university during the past few years because "his writings were to spiritual". Go to his website and read his "subprime" attempt at writing. I've read his e-mails and listened to him pontificate his views on history, culture and governement, and was not impressed at all. Ronin 752 and I must have vastly different academic and intellectual standards. At best, Frank is a pseudo-intellectual... in my opinion, a cross between two hucksters: Al Sharpton and Jimmy Swaggard.

    However, the one area we all agree that Frank is expert in is Okinawan Karate. He is one of the best I ever trained under. Frank is a walking Okinawan Karate encyclopedia. His is also a gifted instructor, from whom I learned a great deal. His interpretation of kata changed and greatly improved my karate, even though I come from another branch of Shorin-ryu than Frank. I study his DVD's on a regular basis.


    We as students, and especially Blackbelts, have a duty and an obligation to warn others about the pitfalls of dishonorable and dishonest instructors. Frank deserted his dojo in Newport News, Virginia ...leaving it "high & dry," without any warning to his instructors and students. According to the sensei he left behind and his assistant, Frank also drained the dojo's bank account shortly afterwards. Sadly, the real victims of Frank's desertion are the kids who he let-down and ripped-off.

    Now that Frank has relocated his circus to Hawaii, I do not want up- and -coming karate students there to be preyed-upon, like the ones he left in Virginia. Keeping quiet about Frank's personal conduct is what con-men like Frank hope for in order for them to continue ripping students off. Ronin752 should be embarrassed advocating not speaking-out about karate instructors like Frank. BTW, Frank has been successfully sued by a former student in James City County, Virginia in a warrant -in-debt for failure to honor a contract. The judge in that case must have agreed with Frank's Federal Judge that his organization is a "sham ."

    Great post! This captures a point I wish I could make better. I don't have the experience with Frank to make this point as a member of the associations that bear Frank in his entirety.... the good the bad, the pretty, the ugly Frank.

    My point is that I know a lot of great teachers who are like Frank. When I see a post like the one above it shows me that someone is being level headed and has perspective on the isssue. And that is the point imo, not whether Frank broke the law....

    The point is beware! In ancient India when a guru was selected by a Brahmin family he was venerated but his price was negotiated and haggled down to the last grain of Basmati Rice he would recieve as his compense for teaching... Whe Rahsnishe came to this country he realized he could ask stupid people for anything by contrast!

    My point is that with Frank and quite a few other characters who are some of the best, it is incumbent on Sempai to tell Kohei what to be careful of. Frank is not exceptional in that his behavoir is lacking and his skills are first rate.
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