I agree Sam. Hargrove preaches honesty and integrity to his students. However, he lied and cheated to get out of paying his debts. In the end, he was found guilty of a crime and it does demonstrate his lack of character.
I know Frank's race and I brought it up Sam. I take ownership of that point, or digression depending on how you feel about it. I feel it is relevant for the reasons stated, we can agree to disagree on this relevance. It is naive to think that a person's background, their socioeconomic background, their associations, etc do not influence to some degree their situation and decisions. It is easy to take the moral high ground as in "this person is absolutely wrong because they broke the law" but it is also a little niave Sam, thats all, I mean you are right in that last sentence with that caveate.
Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
A lot of guys who are outstanding martial artists on the East Coast community went to prison for a lot worse than trying to hold onto their ride.... that bears mentioning... frankly Frank's little misstep viewed in this context gives it a lot less impetus.
Which was one of ten rides :)
Who taught you that? Jeff Skilling? Playing shell games with the bankruptcy court does not work, especially when you transfer the title the year before the bankruptcy and then transfer it back the year after.
Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
Bankruptcy law is intended to protect people in a bad spot who are honestly trying to meet their obligations. Trying to hide eight saleable cars, including a Jaguar, is not honest.
Yeah, who cares about those pesky laws, anyway? Free Jeff Skilling! Free Bernie Ebbers!
Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
Odd -- I'm sorry that you ARE apparently here to defend Hargrove reflexively.
Originally Posted by Dsimon3387
Ok fair enough.
Try to understand this guys. When Frank gave a seminar in Baltimore after the seminar naurally people were socializing a bit. If you had been in the room during social activities you would have been amongst:
One of the most renowned teachers who later went to prison for distribution of drugs
More than a few martial artists who were known to be murderers.
about 3 embezzlers.
Quite a few radical political activists who had legal problems.
Originally Posted by ronin752
Well, ronin752, you need to flush-out your headgear and stop viewing Frank through "rose-colored glasses". Based upon my experience with Frank, I would seriously doubt any academic or business creditials he may put forth. For all we know, Frank's graduating from a Japanese university might be another of his lies. He admits flunking-out of a local university during the past few years because "his writings were to spiritual". Go to his website and read his "subprime" attempt at writing. I've read his e-mails and listened to him pontificate his views on history, culture and governement, and was not impressed at all. Ronin 752 and I must have vastly different academic and intellectual standards. At best, Frank is a pseudo-intellectual... in my opinion, a cross between two hucksters: Al Sharpton and Jimmy Swaggard.
However, the one area we all agree that Frank is expert in is Okinawan Karate. He is one of the best I ever trained under. Frank is a walking Okinawan Karate encyclopedia. His is also a gifted instructor, from whom I learned a great deal. His interpretation of kata changed and greatly improved my karate, even though I come from another branch of Shorin-ryu than Frank. I study his DVD's on a regular basis.
We as students, and especially Blackbelts, have a duty and an obligation to warn others about the pitfalls of dishonorable and dishonest instructors. Frank deserted his dojo in Newport News, Virginia ...leaving it "high & dry," without any warning to his instructors and students. According to the sensei he left behind and his assistant, Frank also drained the dojo's bank account shortly afterwards. Sadly, the real victims of Frank's desertion are the kids who he let-down and ripped-off.
Now that Frank has relocated his circus to Hawaii, I do not want up- and -coming karate students there to be preyed-upon, like the ones he left in Virginia. Keeping quiet about Frank's personal conduct is what con-men like Frank hope for in order for them to continue ripping students off. Ronin752 should be embarrassed advocating not speaking-out about karate instructors like Frank. BTW, Frank has been successfully sued by a former student in James City County, Virginia in a warrant -in-debt for failure to honor a contract. The judge in that case must have agreed with Frank's Federal Judge that his organization is a "sham ."
My father new Hardgrove in the 70's and he always said that he would ruin the organization someday.
I am quite surprised that anyone who knows Frank Hargrove well would say that he is articulate and intelligent. There have been many times that I have corrected his usage of the English language. If you look at his own website, it is full of grammatical and spelling errors. Of course, many college graduates have poor spelling and grammar. However, I am totally with Frontsight. I have yet to see proof of Frank's degree from any university and doubt that he possesses such a degree from an international university.
As far as his knowledge of the martial arts, I believe that he WAS indeed the best. Frank has traveled the world and spent a great deal of time in Japan studying with the best. But again, I sincerely believe that during the operation of his last two dojos, he did not care whether anyone learned karate or not. Frank was out to take people's money. He handed out ranks monthly like they were candy just to appease. Now that I have been to another local dojo, I can see how very differently they operate. This instructor takes the art and promotions very seriously. The students do not automatically receive a promotion each month. They must train for so many hours before being able to test, sometimes two to three months out. The testing process itself takes hours. Frank did not test people. Frank's promotions lasted about 30 minutes, long enough to hand out the belts and scoot everyone out of there. To me, having a belt from Frank Hargrove means nothing compared to the work students from other dojos have put in. I'm embarrassed to have ever been associated with Frank.
Originally Posted by Frontsight
Great post! This captures a point I wish I could make better. I don't have the experience with Frank to make this point as a member of the associations that bear Frank in his entirety.... the good the bad, the pretty, the ugly Frank.
My point is that I know a lot of great teachers who are like Frank. When I see a post like the one above it shows me that someone is being level headed and has perspective on the isssue. And that is the point imo, not whether Frank broke the law....
The point is beware! In ancient India when a guru was selected by a Brahmin family he was venerated but his price was negotiated and haggled down to the last grain of Basmati Rice he would recieve as his compense for teaching... Whe Rahsnishe came to this country he realized he could ask stupid people for anything by contrast!
My point is that with Frank and quite a few other characters who are some of the best, it is incumbent on Sempai to tell Kohei what to be careful of. Frank is not exceptional in that his behavoir is lacking and his skills are first rate.
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