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  1. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 5:58pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Very effective? Do you have proof?
    Many people have used them to defend themselves, including myself. Since they're not sporting events or agreed upon fights, they don't lend themselves to video tape. Next time I'll ask them politely if it is OK to set up the tripod.

    There is a video (haven't seen it on the Internet though) where a thug holds a woman with a knife to her neck (I think it was a bank robbery??). Cops are some distance away, much to far away to grapple, and any move in would equal a slit throat. One person, seeing the thug get more aggressive and move the knife, does a great flying jump kick, knocks the thug down, barely misses getting his leg stuck, and the woman is OK. Anyone see that one?

    Police personnel and armed forces have used traditional martial arts to great success as well.

    Do you have proof that BJJ is effective on the street in an unplanned situation? How about against multiple opponents?

    Those "non-martial aspects such as health, exercise, forging the spirit, learning culture, confidence, fun, social outlet, and etc." -- are you suggesting these aspects are diminshed for those who train with what is termed as "aliveness" ?
    Nope. Just for those people that say martial arts is "only" about fighting. If they say it is only about fighting but then enjoy the things listed above, they are mistaken that it is only about fighting.
  2. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:00pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    It's amazing how MMA is first not deadly enough for the streets, but then becomes too deadly for the streets when the original arguments are defeated.
    It is amazing how often strawmen get recycled. You are aware that you're not getting the 5 cents each time, right? ;)

    Of course it can be deadly, and martial technique can. It is not the most realistic or wisest thing to not have an off button on your deadliness however.
  3. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    Plus, as I've said, many view martial arts as more than just fighting, so "combat" is only one of many things on my mind.
    This is the mentality that has ruined MA and made more a joke than anything.

    If you enrol in a Culinary Arts institute do they wory about the non culinary things? Are those same benefits still there? Yes.

    So why the hell do pple still make asinine statements that combat isn't important to MA or just one of many things. Why not just use the activity for what its was meant for and let the rest come as it may. To paraphrase Oyama, Karate that can't fight isn't Karate. Which goes for any MA.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:11pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    And we weren't talking recent history we were talking about Ancient China vs Modern times. We have more violence and crime now than then.
    I'm sure you have those violence rates from Ancient China to share? ;)

    But LESS then? I've always understood Warring States to imply a high level of constant violence, not less.

    1) You never know who you are going to get into an altercation. And FYI Professional fighters and atheletes have picked on pple before.
    I'd assume this is so rare as to be a waste of resources to train for. I'd have to ask myself what I am training for if I am training with the goal to fight other martial artists in real situations.

    I'm not saying we should train to the lowest common denomenator, but to a realistic denomenator.

    2) EVERY warrior culture (incliding nonprofessional MArtist) have used SPORT fighting to hone their skills. Even our military today does the same thing. We hold combatives competitions and play wargames to prepare for real war.
    I agree. But people don't appeal to war when the claim BJJ is superior. They appeal to UFC-ish sport events.

    Therefore the whole "I train for real life and not sport" is ignorant and bottomline the SPORT guy is way better prepared than someone no used to the stress brought on by physical confintation.
    The vast majority of people do not find themselves in war. And if in war, generally BJJ is as useless as taijiquan since tanks, aircraft and other technological nasties are more efficient.
  5. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:20pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    This is the mentality that has ruined MA and made more a joke than anything.
    Tomayto, tomahto. :)

    Many people very proficient in martial arts hold the view that there is more to martial arts than just fighting. History shows this.

    So why the hell do pple still make asinine statements that combat isn't important to MA or just one of many things.
    Fighting is important. It is also one of many things.

    Why not just use the activity for what its was meant for and let the rest come as it may.
    You simply may be mistaken on what it was meant for (and so may I). Also, as mentioned, martial arts like everything else, evolve to meet the needs of people now.
  6. Neildo is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    ...martial arts like everything else, Devolve to meet the needs of sissies now.
    Fixed.
  7. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:28pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sure you have those violence rates from Ancient China to share? ;)

    But LESS then? I've always understood Warring States to imply a high level of constant violence, not less.
    Then you need to go back and understand what WARRING STATES means.

    Besides we have a much larger population today as opposed to then and a simple check into social norms will show when the populations goes up the crime rate goes up.

    I'd assume this is so rare as to be a waste of resources to train for. I'd have to ask myself what I am training for if I am training with the goal to fight other martial artists in real situations.
    How do you know its rare. Like I stated before you don't know who you might get into an altercation to. And as far as wasting resources MMA gyms produce effective MAritst in a much shorter time than any Taijiquan school. So who is really wasting resources?

    I'm not saying we should train to the lowest common denomenator, but to a realistic denomenator.
    All your post tend to point to you doing just that, training for the lowest common denomenator. If you want a realistic view you should take into account that there are more MA schools than ever. And given the bombardment we have of violence now (which again is way more than before) you are likely to face someone who a)has some MA experience, even at a McDojo or b)not opposed to engage in a really violent altercation. Best thing for any MArtist to do is train for the worse and hope for the best.

    But people don't appeal to war when the claim BJJ is superior. They appeal to UFC-ish sport events.
    Army Combatives is based off of BJJ and MMA. It has been test and found effective on the battlefeild and that all due to the UFC. Therefore point still stands. The UFC is a return to what true MArtist did before.

    The vast majority of people do not find themselves in war. And if in war, generally BJJ is as useless as taijiquan since tanks, aircraft and other technological nasties are more efficient.
    No but I didn't mention war then now did I. I said PHYSICAL CONFRINTATION which the vas majority does find themselves in one time or another. And see above. BJJ had been way more useful at Modern War than Taijiquan.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  8. Mr. Jones is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Asia this a little off subject but what's your take on Chen style?
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:33pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    Tomayto, tomahto. :)

    Many people very proficient in martial arts hold the view that there is more to martial arts than just fighting. History shows this.
    More accurately they acknowldege that MA can bring other benefits but they never said MA was for developing those benefits. History shows THAT.


    Fighting is important. It is also one of many things.
    Not many things it is the main thing. The only other part would be conditioning for fighting is all that is required for MA.



    You simply may be mistaken on what it was meant for (and so may I). Also, as mentioned, martial arts like everything else, evolve to meet the needs of people now.
    I seriously doubt that I am mistaken because the term itself tells what it was meant for. Martial (combat/war) Art (skill) it doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

    And yes MA evolved to suit COMBAT for a modern era NOT move away form it like you are suggesting.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 6:36pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not this damn argument again.

    Remove the fitness, philosophy, spiritual, etc components of a Martial Art and you still have a Martial Art.

    Remove the fighting component and all you have is fitness, philosophy, or spiritual garbage.
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