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  1. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:10pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Its worse now. We face more violence now but our level of policing and protection has gone up as well.
    If guess if one watches aggressive programming on tv and trains in it, one might think that. Reality says:

    "Violent crime rates declined since 1994, reaching the lowest level ever recorded in 2004
    ...
    The violent crimes included are rape, robbery, aggravated and simple assault, and
    homicide"

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
  2. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:11pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Hard sparring is the historical way.
    Then you're really TMA because you want to maintain the hard sparring tradition. ;)

    Of course fighting applications are the common element between martial arts though. However, as times changes, we see martial arts change according to peoples' needs.

    A modern practicioner might want to know if a cop seeing them sitting on someone's chest and punching their face repeatedly until unconsciousness (a technique shown in UFC-ish events), even if they were the ones who were attacked, will give them a longer jail term than if they just put them in a hold. One of Rutten's tapes, from the clips I've seen, show the horrible technique of shattering someone's knee if they only call your wife a name. Another technique shows how to assault someone by elbowing them in the face a half dozen times just if that person says 'You're sitting in my chair'. Other people look for better solutions. Too much resistance is as useless for real life as not enough.

    If combat effectiveness is not an important aim for you, and you're practicing purely to uphold tradition and for whatever other reasons of your own, go to it, drill as you like; while I, and I suspect many people here, may not understand your interest and think of it as slightly pointless, you're not deluding yourself. But if you are training in it to learn how to fight, then you need to recognise the major shortfalls of just going through the motions, which is what learning to fight without a real, resisting opponent is.
    I'm not training to fight sport fights. If you are, you need to assess and think if you'll ever encounter such a situation in real life (dozens of rules including prohibited techniques, having a referee, etc.), and if not, think why appealing to sports should be considered a good argument.

    Self defense applications, including sparring, with some resistance (and many martial arts do train full contact) is realistic for real life, something the average Joe/Jane would be likely to encounter. The average Joe/Jane will probably never be picked on by a professional combat sport athlete with years and years of training, I'm guessing.

    It might not be enough for UFC-ish events though, but those are sports and entertainment, not real life.
  3. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:17pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    In contrast to how punches work both in the ring and on the street, small joint manipulation only works if you know BJJ.
    I don't think many people believe that no one did small joint manipulations or effective small joint manipulations before BJJ was around.
  4. Meager is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:18pm


     Style: BJJ & MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    I'm not training to fight sport fights. If you are, you need to assess and think if you'll ever encounter such a situation in real life (dozens of rules including prohibited techniques, having a referee, etc.), and if not, think why appealing to sports should be considered a good argument.

    Self defense applications, including sparring, with some resistance (and many martial arts do train full contact) is realistic for real life, something the average Joe/Jane would be likely to encounter. The average Joe/Jane will probably never be picked on by a professional combat sport athlete with years and years of training, I'm guessing.

    It might not be enough for UFC-ish events though, but those are sports and entertainment, not real life.
    I train to fight sport fights because I want to sport fight. If I cared about self defense I would carry a gun (and maybe a knife) and learn how to use it. How exactly is training in an ancient martial art going to prepare you for modern combat?
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    I don't think many people believe that no one did small joint manipulations or effective small joint manipulations before BJJ was around.
    I didn't see anyone effectively use small joint manipulation in the early UFCs when it was still legal. I'm sure plenty of those guys trained it.
    Last edited by Meager; 5/19/2006 4:21pm at .
  5. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:24pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    You misunderstand what I mean when I say "nailing it down".

    By "it" I mean Hannibal and by "down" I mean, to an interstate highway with an industrial rivet driver just before rush hour.
    Ah. A worthy endeavor. In that case, I have no objections.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  6. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:30pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    Then you're really TMA because you want to maintain the hard sparring tradition. ;)

    Of course fighting applications are the common element between martial arts though. However, as times changes, we see martial arts change according to peoples' needs.

    A modern practicioner might want to know if a cop seeing them sitting on someone's chest and punching their face repeatedly until unconsciousness (a technique shown in UFC-ish events), even if they were the ones who were attacked, will give them a longer jail term than if they just put them in a hold. One of Rutten's tapes, from the clips I've seen, show the horrible technique of shattering someone's knee if they only call your wife a name. Another technique shows how to assault someone by elbowing them in the face a half dozen times just if that person says 'You're sitting in my chair'. Other people look for better solutions. Too much resistance is as useless for real life as not enough.



    I'm not training to fight sport fights. If you are, you need to assess and think if you'll ever encounter such a situation in real life (dozens of rules including prohibited techniques, having a referee, etc.), and if not, think why appealing to sports should be considered a good argument.

    Self defense applications, including sparring, with some resistance (and many martial arts do train full contact) is realistic for real life, something the average Joe/Jane would be likely to encounter. The average Joe/Jane will probably never be picked on by a professional combat sport athlete with years and years of training, I'm guessing.

    It might not be enough for UFC-ish events though, but those are sports and entertainment, not real life.
    It's amazing how MMA is first not deadly enough for the streets, but then becomes too deadly for the streets when the original arguments are defeated.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    considering that the "dead" martial arts have been very effective for many, many years (people couldn't fight effectively pre-UFC huh???) for fighting as well as non-martial aspects such as health, exercise, forging the spirit, learning culture, confidence, fun, social outlet, and etc.
    Very effective? Do you have proof?

    Those "non-martial aspects such as health, exercise, forging the spirit, learning culture, confidence, fun, social outlet, and etc." -- are you suggesting these aspects are diminshed for those who train with what is termed as "aliveness" ?
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:35pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jzs
    If guess if one watches aggressive programming on tv and trains in it, one might think that. Reality says:

    "Violent crime rates declined since 1994, reaching the lowest level ever recorded in 2004
    ...
    The violent crimes included are rape, robbery, aggravated and simple assault, and
    homicide"

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
    I think you missed a key point.

    And we weren't talking recent history we were talking about Ancient China vs Modern times. We have more violence and crime now than then.

    I'm not training to fight sport fights. If you are, you need to assess and think if you'll ever encounter such a situation in real life (dozens of rules including prohibited techniques, having a referee, etc.), and if not, think why appealing to sports should be considered a good argument.

    Self defense applications, including sparring, with some resistance (and many martial arts do train full contact) is realistic for real life, something the average Joe/Jane would be likely to encounter. The average Joe/Jane will probably never be picked on by a professional combat sport athlete with years and years of training, I'm guessing.
    This is the same tired BS statements that have been smacked down time and time agian.

    1) You never know who you are going to get into an altercation. And FYI Professional fighters and atheletes have picked on pple before.

    2) EVERY warrior culture (incliding nonprofessional MArtist) have used SPORT fighting to hone their skills. Even our military today does the same thing. We hold combatives competitions and play wargames to prepare for real war. Therefore the whole "I train for real life and not sport" is ignorant and bottomline the SPORT guy is way better prepared than someone no used to the stress brought on by physical confintation.


    It might not be enough for UFC-ish events though, but those are sports and entertainment, not real life
    I put money down that it is closer to real life than your training. If you think other ways you are blissfully ignorant.
    ______
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    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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  9. jzs is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:44pm


     Style: aikido, taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Meager
    If I cared about self defense I would carry a gun (and maybe a knife) and learn how to use it. How exactly is training in an ancient martial art going to prepare you for modern combat?
    Because people still fight with arms and legs and human anatomy hasn't changed substantially in an incredibly long time? If everyone carried around weapons (they don't) things would be different.

    Plus, as I've said, many view martial arts as more than just fighting, so "combat" is only one of many things on my mind.

    I didn't see anyone effectively use small joint manipulation in the early UFCs when it was still legal. I'm sure plenty of those guys trained it.
    In UFC1-3 (what people appeal to when they say early less rules UFCs), there are only 32 unique fighters from 30 total fights (and probably some of these fighters did not train joint manipulations). I don't think it makes much sense to appeal to this sparse sport data as examples of entire techniques being ineffective (or effective for that matter) for real life. Maybe those few fighters perferred other techniques?

    I wonder why it is illegal now though? It probably lengthens the match to prolong the entertainment, as well as makes it safer because they are effective techniques.
  10. Rubberduck is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:46pm


     Style: Savate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    It's amazing how MMA is first not deadly enough for the streets, but then becomes too deadly for the streets when the original arguments are defeated.
    Because people already have the answer they want in their head, and donīt like it when others prove/try to prove it wrong. Then they resort to circular logic to defend their sacred view. So much for the empty cup F(ossilised) Martial Artistists (do not confuse to Filipino MA) blabber about. :bduh:
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