I can only hope this is BS

**Virus** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 8:42am

What Asia said. I've mentioned before that I disagree with how most bujinkan I've seen uses space. Aside from the fact that I don't consider standing armlocks very effective, they tend to do them with a lot of space for the uke to move around in. This lowers the effectivness by many degrees. The equivalent of doing an armbar, but not squeezing your legs together, not holding the arm right up to your body and leaving it free to flap around and do counters, escapes or whatever. It's been said that the old style of jujitsu did things that way to allow you to get at your (concealed) weapons, or to provide a bit of a buffer against thiers.

Example, and OMG pics of disaster as well taken from here: (take a look) http://homepage.ntlworld.com/degsey2000/gallery.htm

Just ignore the chair for a second and look at how much space there is for the uke's arm to move around. In a real situation it's going to be pulled back and/or flopping around. It's not secure control of the arm. I've seen this type of stuff all the time, if you really wanted to use this standing armbar, you need to trap it to your chest and/or figure 4 your arms. Maybe grab your shirt to lock it in. In my book thats plain out crappling.

PS I'd be happy to be proven wrong by a good dose of alive footage but I've yet to see it.

**Muqatil** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 12:06pm

Originally Posted by LORD ASIA

I know you asked Virus but I would like to provide some input since I've defined this several times.

Arts (Skills) do indeed become out dated. The prime example I use is any art that falls under the heading KUMIUCHI. These various arts deal with fighting while wearing yoroi. This isn't done anymore, thus it is outdated. Kenjutst or Bikenjutsu because a sword is not a primary, and thus not practical, weapon for the battlefeild or Self Defense anymore. No the arguement of replacing a sword with a stick doesn't hold water. Since the movements are designed to CUT instead of blunt force they don't translate over well. And if it was that simple why did seperate arts for stick fighting develop?

When it comes to other forms of Koryu JJ some are still outdated becuase they came up to address certian social needs for that particular time. Would you need to invest alot of time on seiza waza? No because situations where you might be attaked in such a postition are extremely rare nowadays. Kukishinden has many areas the focused around fighting at sea with a bo or hanbo. How much call is ther efor that? Considering the pirates today use rifles.

So yes arts can indeed become outdated.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, Asia. I agree with you that some skills can be outdated/antiquated. Their only real use is for preservation. We probably won't ever be in the middle of a sword fight, shooting arrows at the enemy or fighting with a spear in armor.

Where I disagree is the use of the ideas/points they are teaching with those skills. Some of us, like yourself, me and others, may very well find ourselves fighting in body armor of against it. A number of the skills used in moving in the armor and using it as an advantage/disadvantage are still usefull. The openings around the body armor and helmet are similar to the older armor.

Spear use can directly translate into bayonet use. Drawing a sword is a skill that can be applied to "properly" drawing a sidearm or knife. A number of the techniques for retaining/taking away a sword can translate into weapons retention and take away.

Just because the tools of waging war have changed doesn't mean the skills are useless.

Of course, if all you ever do is swing a sword around and never learn how it applies to modern situations, you're preserving an art, not learning about combat.

**Muqatil** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 12:08pm

Originally Posted by Virus

What Asia said. I've mentioned before that I disagree with how most bujinkan I've seen uses space. Aside from the fact that I don't consider standing armlocks very effective, they tend to do them with a lot of space for the uke to move around in. This lowers the effectivness by many degrees. The equivalent of doing an armbar, but not squeezing your legs together, not holding the arm right up to your body and leaving it free to flap around and do counters, escapes or whatever. It's been said that the old style of jujitsu did things that way to allow you to get at your (concealed) weapons, or to provide a bit of a buffer against thiers.

Example, and OMG pics of disaster as well taken from here: (take a look) http://homepage.ntlworld.com/degsey2000/gallery.htm

Just ignore the chair for a second and look at how much space there is for the uke's arm to move around. In a real situation it's going to be pulled back and/or flopping around. It's not secure control of the arm. I've seen this type of stuff all the time, if you really wanted to use this standing armbar, you need to trap it to your chest and/or figure 4 your arms. Maybe grab your shirt to lock it in. In my book thats plain out crappling.

PS I'd be happy to be proven wrong by a good dose of alive footage but I've yet to see it.

What's the timing of that picture though? Is he releasing the hold as it was snapped? Is he just moving into the hold? Or, is he a student that still has a way to go in his learning process?

**Gezere** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 12:50pm

Spear use can directly translate into bayonet use. Drawing a sword is a skill that can be applied to "properly" drawing a sidearm or knife. A number of the techniques for retaining/taking away a sword can translate into weapons retention and take away.

I have to greatly disagree. The dynamics between a spear and a bayonet are HUGE. (and they developed a completely seperate art for bayonet fighting, Jukenjutsu) Same with drawing a sword and a knife. Very different things. Why waste time trying to apply principles of one outdated weapon to a modern one that has its own properties. Why not just develop the skills for that weapon and its own merits.

Just because the tools of waging war have changed doesn't mean the skills are useless.

Skills related to outdate tools have indeed become useless along with several of the principles behind them.

Sojutsu and Bayonet fighting are very different. The size, shape, and weight of the weapons are different. Therefore many prinicples behind sojutst do not translate to bayonet fighting. So its a waste of time. If you worry about being in a situation where you will have to use a bayonet then get you rifle, fix bayonet, and train with that not play with a spear.

Of course, if all you ever do is swing a sword around and never learn how it applies to modern situations, you're preserving an art, not learning about combat.

But a sword doesn't apply to modern situations. Fighting with a knife is different than fighting with a sword. So its uselsess to waste time and brain power try to apply it to modern times. The smart thing to do is focus on the weapons you will likely use which already have a develops skill set.

**Muqatil** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 1:06pm

Originally Posted by LORD ASIA

I have to greatly disagree. The dynamics between a spear and a bayonet are HUGE. (and they developed a completely seperate art for bayonet fighting, Jukenjutsu) Same with drawing a sword and a knife. Very different things. Why waste time trying to apply principles of one outdated weapon to a modern one that has its own properties. Why not just develop the skills for that weapon and its own merits.

Skills related to outdate tools have indeed become useless along with several of the principles behind them.

Sojutsu and Bayonet fighting are very different. The size, shape, and weight of the weapons are different. Therefore many prinicples behind sojutst do not translate to bayonet fighting. So its a waste of time. If you worry about being in a situation where you will have to use a bayonet then get you rifle, fix bayonet, and train with that not play with a spear.

But a sword doesn't apply to modern situations. Fighting with a knife is different than fighting with a sword. So its uselsess to waste time and brain power try to apply it to modern times. The smart thing to do is focus on the weapons you will likely use which already have a develops skill set.

A Spear and bayonet are different, I never said otherwise. I stated that principles can be applied. So can some of the grappling with swords be applied.

I didn't say a sword applied to modern warfare either, nor did I say it was the same as fighting with a knife. How do you draw a sword? With your arm or with your body? It's the same with a knife and a sidearm. Weapon retention shares the same principles also.

I have no problem with picking a up a rifle and bayonet to train with, nor do I have a problem with showing people exactly where the skills come from. Too many people are so willing to jump on the bandwagon that says, "if it's not modern it's useless". IMO, that can be a very restrictive POV.

**Muqatil** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 1:17pm

What is Tankendo?
by Meik Skoss
Q: Can anyone give me some information on tankendo? Especially, when (and why) was it created? And is it just sparring or there are kata as well?

A: Tankendo is an art associated with jukendo. Both were created during in the Meiji and Taisho eras, as part of the effort to modernize the Japanese army. Originally, it was based on a French system of bayonet combat, but that proved to be quite unsatisfactory to Japanese soldiers, and they introduced elements of Japanese spear technique (notably the Ito-ryu and Hozoin-ryu), including the tobi fumikomi that's still used in training today.
Tankendo grew out of the Japanese experience in the Russo-Japanese War and World War I, when the Japanese army had occasional need to use the bayonet (or juken) in dismounted fashion. It was felt that a technical rationale was needed for the bayonet to be used effectively in close quarters. Again, the military looked to classical techniques for inspiration, notably that of the Toda-ryu.

Both jukendo and tankendo include training in fundamentals (kiso), basic and applied techniques (kihon and oyo waza), attack training (dai-ni kyoshu, which is basically the same as kakari geiko in kendo), freestyle training (dai-san kyoshu, or ji geiko), shiai, and kata. There are different series of kata for both weapons: juken-juken (8), juken-tanken (6), juken-tachi (6), tanken-tanken (8), and, finally, tanken-juken (6, the same as juken-tanken). I'm not sure if there are tanken-tachi kata, but that would likely be a set of 6 as well.

The Japanese Imperial Army combined training in juken/tanken (under the rubrics of jukenjutsu/tankenjutsu) with gunto soho, i.e., Toyama-ryu battojutsu (solo) and tachigumi (pairs training). All these sets of individual and paired kata provide one heckuva good background in CQC with sharp pointy objects and really constitute an excellent system.

Personally, I think these arts are about the best thing going for budo types who specialize in unarmed techniques (whether grappling or sparring), as they've got a lot of breadth and depth. If one is of a practical bent, this is the stuff what will get one through a long day full of meetings, demanding clients and supervisors, and just plain old everyday hassles.

Oh, yeah, did I mention that in isshu jiai, the tanken usually beats the juken? It's a great example of use of ma-ai, hyoshi, and hassuji. If one is going to study only *one* weapon, tanken or hanbo are the weapons of choice: they provide the most flexible responses to a very wide variety of situations.

Copyright ©2000 Meik Skoss. All rights reserved.

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This article first appeared on the Iaido-l mailing list , 2000. For more information, check out the Iaido-l mailing list.
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©2001 Koryu Books. All rights reserved.

http://www.koryubooks.com/library/mskoss12.html

**Gezere** · Posted On: 5/25/2006 2:40pm

Originally Posted by Muqatil

A Spear and bayonet are different, I never said otherwise. I stated that principles can be applied. So can some of the grappling with swords be applied.

I didn't say a sword applied to modern warfare either, nor did I say it was the same as fighting with a knife. How do you draw a sword? With your arm or with your body? It's the same with a knife and a sidearm. Weapon retention shares the same principles also.

I have no problem with picking a up a rifle and bayonet to train with, nor do I have a problem with showing people exactly where the skills come from. Too many people are so willing to jump on the bandwagon that says, "if it's not modern it's useless". IMO, that can be a very restrictive POV.

Its a PRACTIACAL POV for reasons I already stated.

I was speaking for both the weapon and the principle. Drawing a sword and drawing a sidearm do not share the same principles. And I think that the point that is being missed. How do you draw a sword? Does your body move the same way if you drawing a sidearm? Nope.

The only train of thought that is common on weapons retention not letting the oppenent take the weapon aways. Weapon retention for a sword is not the same as with a handgun.

I studied both jukenjutsu and takenjutsu. I also have material on Hozoin Ryu sojutsu. I understand the idea about employing the weapon in the same way, such as thrusting it, but thats a now brainer. The difference in a Hozoin Ryu spear and the Rifle and bayonet are great. Just like you couldn't apply the same training to an modern M-16 and bayonet or M4 and bayonet. Its a waste of time if you are training for actual combat.