Posted On:2/20/2012 8:33pm
I can provide the name of the guy who taught Sheppard Reale and the name of another of his students who went on to found a more popular sports MA using the same info. I'll have to get back to you on the names because I don't have them written down and Don't want to post incorrect info. As for documentation, I have only what Master Reale has told me and his two books on Sanjuriu. I do most sincerely wish I knew more about the background. The organization is very small with Dojos in Twin Falls, Jerome, ID, where Reale lives, North Dakota, I'm not exactly sure were, Ft. Collins, Las Vegas, Bakersfield and Coos Bay, OR, at SWOCC, where I'm at. My instructor, Master Langenstiein has been teaching here for over 20 years.
Posted On:2/20/2012 9:10pm
Oh please provide the names, that will keep your poor necro in this thread. Just so you know, there are hundreds of people who claim to have developed military combatives.
Posted On:2/20/2012 9:44pm
Originally Posted by cvbnm458
...Training as a sport inhibits the use of full knowledge during combat. Training as a sport generally excludes combat with multiple opponents and being able to use empty hands, and/or weapons or any object that can be utilized. And my favorite, Sanjuriu, unlike competitive martial arts, has no rules whatsoever. As you can see, Sanjuriu is useless as a competitive sport, unless, of course, you're willing to join another organization to compete. A couple of my friends are also in Judo.
Admittedly it has been a long time since my Sanjuriu class, but let's see if I can remember the rules, in no particular order...
1. Don't actually hit anybody.
2. React in a manner you think is realistic when someone pretends to hit you.
3. Good guy wins, bad guy loses.
4. Use the "attack" you're supposed to use, even if it doesn't make sense in any context.
These are the rules of every compliant "martial art." You have to drink a lot of the kool-aid to believe that practicing like this makes you BETTER than someone who has competition experience.
Originally Posted by cvbnm458
I was recently asked, "If you don't compete, how do you know if you're any good?" A legitimate question. Well, we had a kid who got as far as brown belt before joining the Army. He had just learned Bo kata#1 and while doing the bootcamp thing with the padded sticks, defeated everone in his company, some 60 guys. A 1st grade girl, blue belt in jujitsu, was attacked by a 2nd grade boy at recess, she threw him with O Goshi onto pavement.
The beating sixty guys with a kata thing sounds so much like a movie if you had video I still wouldn't believe it. I might give the O Goshi story the benefit of the doubt, but having seen Sanjuriu in practice I have real trouble believing that someone successfully used such a technique against a resisting opponent with no experience using such techniques against resisting opponents.
Originally Posted by cvbnm458
I broke up a fight just by showing up. Both participants knew I have a black belt. I never took my hands out of my pockets or said a word. The guy I liked less immediately ran off. I was asked "How good are you?" I said, "Just average for somebody who has been taking 8 hours of classes a week and practicing a lot for the last 12 years."
Of course they broke it up. They're in second grade! Oh wait, it's a different story. I'm sure after dropping humblebrags like that your whole life you probably have convinced some gullible people that you can throw down. Or they didn't want to fight anyway and the arrival of a witness was a good excuse to disengage.
Posted On:2/21/2012 12:58am
I have extensive experience with Sanjuriu and I'm no longer associated with them. As to why I'm no longer a part of Sanjuriu, I'll give you some of my reasons below.
Sanzyuryu began around 1993 after breaking off from Kokondo. The name was changed because of the need to copyright "Sanjuriu". Reale says that the name was changed to be a more correct translation, but he's incorrect, as "sanjuriu" is a misspelling of sanzyuryu.
I know most all of the sanjuriu kata and to prove it here's a general list: taikyokyu 1-3, pinan 1-5, nihaku, sankaku, shikaku, saifa, bassai, kanku, saifa 2, bassai dai, uke, tsuki, geri, sochin 1-2, henka 1-2, nijushiho, seienchin 1-2, sanchin 1-2, tensho, naihanchi 1-3, jutte, jutte bo variation, unsu, gojushiho, gojushiho 2, henka 3, sushiho, henka 4 (sushiho variant), hangetsu, henka 5 (hangetsu variant), empi, henka 6 (empi variant), gankaku, rohai. Bo 1-3, Sai 1-3, Niaha.
One thing that you might wonder is, if sanjuriu is an authentic samurai system, why are all of these kata from Okinawa? If you look at the historical background behind these kata, almost all of them are held to originate in Okinawa. Some of the creators of these kata were Funakoshi (taikyokyu), Sokon Matsumura (he passed down many kata, including bassai and kanku), Itosu (pinan)... these kata come from all three of the old villages of Okinawa: Shuri, Naha and Tomari.
Historically, Okinawa and Japan where enemies, so why would the samurai adopt the katas of a land that they had subjugated? Why doesn't sanjuriu do other kata, ones that were created by the Japanese long before they invaded Okinawa?
Another thing that's interesting is the certificates that Reale hands out. I've had one of them translated and the sentence structure indicates that it was written by a non-native who had little understanding of Japanese, as if someone looked through a kanji dictionary and just picked out kanji that described samurai training.
If you've been a part of sanjuriu for any length of time, you know that the most important thing is bunkai/himitsu. "There are over 800 techniques in taikyokyu". This theory of bunkai is the only thing that connects the jujutsu throws to the kata. Otherwise there would be no connection between the two. And aikijutsu? That's all a part of it too, in the kata of course. Iai and kenjutsu? Just put a sword in taikyokyu.
But have you ever seen any other samurai school have taikyokyu in their syllabus, much less put a sword in it?
Basically, anything that doesn't make sense is a secret that the student isn't good enough to know about yet. So whenever you feel doubt about the system, the psychological framework of the school is set up so as to redirect that doubt back at you and how you don't know enough. Thus you never have an objective basis to doubt the system.
Now take that psychological framework and add to it the idea that there are hardly any other schools that have any knowledge. At this point you don't doubt sanjuriu and you don't bother to look elsewhere to see if anyone else knows anything, because after all sanjuriu tells you that no one else except some emperor's guards in Japan know any of this stuff.
Isn't it weird that Paul Arel had the same katas in Kokondo, and the same throws, and yet he never made any claims about the emperor's guard?
And, if Reale was sent by the military to learn from some secret texts that were almost destroyed in world war 2, how come Paul Arel taught the same things as Reale and said that he learned it from 15 or so different martial arts? (As the Arel sites list everything that he studied).
If Reale gained special knowledge during Vietnam, how come Arel knew these kata and techniques before Reale?
If you ask Reale about the history of Sanjuriu, what does he say? Well he abstracts to the samurai in general. Sure people were doing wrist locks thousands of years ago. Then he jumps to himself, as if implicitly linking those people to sanjuriu.
When every kata needs to be practiced for a lifetime, to learn more and more bunkai and himitsu, what you've got is a system that is infinite, because Reale and the others can put bunkai where ever they want.
But really, it's impossible for taikyokyu to contain 800 techniques. I'm sure Reale could set you down and show you a hundred without batting an eye. But each technique requires a slightly different movement, and after awhile that step to zenkutsu is nothing like it use to be. Sometimes the step happens as a lunge, other times the leg shoots back like in a o soto gari karate take down. Sometimes the leg swings about like in tai o toshi. He can change everything about the kata to suite his own ideas, making it's structure like play-doh in his hands. In this way, Reale isn't divulging ancient secrets, he's imagining techniques and imposing them into the kata; he's in his own dreamland.
Just speak with the man at any length and you can tell that he's in a different world then the rest of us.
So, if you want to talk more about sanjuriu, with an open mind, I can be of assistance. If nothing else I'd urge you to think about these things and take a look at some of the other martial arts out there.
Last edited by Dopyfool; 2/21/2012 1:17am at .
Posted On:2/21/2012 3:45am
Want to see an intelligent response, read the comment from Dopyfool. I never have and never will make the claim that Sanjuriu is BETTER than any other system. I've seen martial arts all across the spectrum from really good to really bad and it often had nothing to do with the system taught and a lot more with the competence of the instructor and diligence of the students. My wife was a black belt in JKA, I was in Bando as a youngster. (Do they still have Bando?) I am not unacquainted with competitive martial arts. The guy beat the 60 or so guys over the course of boot camp, which I thought would have been obvious. I should have been clearer. We do our jujitsu program full-on, there is nothing fake about it. Three of my dojo's members are Judo black belts. I throw them, they throw me. We don't hold back a darn thing. Yes, we don't make full contact while doing things like empi age uchi, with good reason. Most of our techniques are applied until the partner signals that they have had enough. That's the way the system works. I have to simulate breaking someone's arm or elbow strike to the head for obvious reasons. I hope you do too. Hate to think your MA's have given you brain damage.
Posted On:2/21/2012 4:46am
An informed reply as I have ever seen. You missed a few katas, but nevermind. The original spelling was Sanzyuryu. I was a member when it was changed about 2001 and yes, for copyright reasons. Reale had the system up and running at least in the early 80's because I have seen certificates dating back to then. I was told that Reale got the info from Arel who got it in Japan after WWII. Took the info and set up a system from it. I have never heard a word about any secret knowledge from Reale. I was told that he trained special forces in Vietnam, not that he learned secret knowledge there. Haven't heard him say anything about Imperial guards. Haven't heard of anything about 15 martial arts. I have spoken with Reale at length, a great deal of which had nothing to do with Sanjuriu or martial arts, and found him to be a nice guy, good sense of humor, certainly knowledgeable about the techniques he teaches. I'm not exactly in awe of the guy. I already figured out that the kanji on the certificates does not translate well. Most all Japanese martial arts can be claimed to be derived from Okinawa, who got it from China. The original samurai were from Okinawa. Katas used are a relatively new invention, but the techniques contained therein are not. I am well aware that almost every martial arts system in the US has been more or less invented recently. Nothing JKA or Judo didn't do when they were founded, not that far back, either. Authenticity is often a matter of degree. I was not aware of any particular number of possibilities with T-1, but there I think you quibble. I enjoy the intellectual challenge of bunkai. I don't live in a vacuum. I enjoy the system more than other martial arts I have been involved with. Krav Maga is pretty cool. I admire your obvious knowedge, but for the most part Bullshido has for too many guys like Noob who have nothing more to say than "you suck." Best wishes. I'm out of here.
Posted On:2/21/2012 4:48am
Not sure who wrote what. Sorry.
Posted On:2/21/2012 9:21am
Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis
Originally Posted by cvbnm458
Most all Japanese martial arts can be claimed to be derived from Okinawa, who got it from China. The original samurai were from Okinawa.
Okinawa was a backwater, a series of islands filled with hick farmers. Naha, Shuri and Tomari were villages for fucks sake, not some mecca for martial artists. There's a reason why Japan invaded Okinawa, and not the other way around.
Posted On:2/21/2012 10:03am
See, you are still doing it. What you heard does not make it true. Oh and lol at "far (not for) too many noobs." Most of the "noobs" have more knowledge about Japanese and Okinawan history than you.
If you are going to make a dig at bullshido, while defending your art, at least have the decency to not base your argument on hearsay and unverifiable "legends."
Oh and the "he is a nice guy" doesn't work as an argument.
Posted On:2/21/2012 2:27pm
I apologize and will take your advice. It was wrong of me to even try "defend" my martial arts. I am in Sanjuriu because I enjoy it, not because I feel a need to defend myself. If you don't enjoy you MA and do need to defend yourself, you're probably doing something wrong. I like Reale as a friend but I am not at all a fan of his management, or lack thereof, of Sanjuriu. He's about to retire, it's not my business and I am curious to see what happens when he's no longer around. Regardless of where he got the info, or BS that I have heard about him, his two books are worth studying, if you can find them. I'm about to turn 54. I get hurt enough doing this non-contact, wimpy martial arts as it is. Anyone engaged in competitive, full contact martial arts needs to be aware that there are long-term consequences.
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