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  1. Pinan is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2007 2:55pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    I'd say his philosophy for avoidng competitions is similar to our own, although again, no one is forbidden from competing. I certainly would never say that Kokondo students are afraid to compete, but I don't know one personally, so that would be every bit as much of an assumption as you are making. I'm betting that Reale and Arel have the same philosophy with regard to competing however.
    SB -

    I fully realize that I'm jumping into this thread quite late and I'd like to comment regarding competition within the Kokondo system.

    First off I am currently involved with Kokondo Karate (which is heavily influenced by Kykushin..I'd even say it's a baseline foundation for the style and it becomes a hybrid from there). In any case I started in the 80's and trained directly under Arel. I did work out with Reale a few times prior to the split. I was just 17 at the time, but he was an excellent instructor and I was very comfortable with his style of teaching. I took a break from MAs in 1991 mainly because I felt burned out. I spent the next decade living life, raising a family, etc. Once I had regained my focus, I started looking into other styles, but none that I tried really "clicked" with me. It wasn't that they were not effective or authentic, but they just didn't feel as though they were styles that suited me. With that said, I returned to Kokondo this past year and I've enjoyed the return ever since.

    Now as far as competition is mentioned in this thread, we don't involve ourselves with it. Period. I have inquired to many of the Masters in the system if the logic to not challenge oneself is wise and their answer is akin to what is stated clearly on Shihan Arel's website. But, every master in the system did also state that competition is not a bad thing. They clearly acknowledge and respect anyone who steps into a ring. But for Kokondo their stance is that they don't feel it adds to our style. I personally don't feel cheated by not engaging in competition and so I can live with their philosophy.

    I'm interested in hearing more about your style though as I have to wonder the aspects incorporated by Shihan Arel into his system come from yours.

    Ossu
  2. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/25/2007 11:03pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I went to a 90 minute Sanjuriu class this evening. Afterwards the instructors didn't have long to talk but I told them my screen name and where I'd been hearing about the school and that I had been corresponding with Socratic Bass, so I expect we've picked up some more readers for the thread.

    Sorry to be a tease, but I'm going to sleep on it before I write up a big post telling the mostly unexciting story.
  3. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/26/2007 9:56pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Observations of Sanjuriu Class on 25 July 2007

    Wednesday night I had the chance to attend a Sanjuriu class held at my gym, Courtsouth West in Knoxville, Tennessee. I missed maybe the first five or ten minutes of class, but I’m going to guess I just missed bowing in and the side breakfalls for warmup, since that’s what the students were doing when I came in. I wish I had a good memory for names, but regrettably I do not. If David or one of the instructors present is reading this, maybe you can help me with names. The class consisted of me, another guy trying the class for the first time who I’ll call Other Noob, a Head Instructor, who was a probably 6’4”, 260 pound or so guy in his late thirties or early 40s, a short, medium-built Assistant Instructor who looked to be in his late 40s, and two brown belts, but I only interacted with one, who was my partner for practice. For the most part I stayed in character for the compliant drills, with the occasional deviation just to see what would happen.

    The class started with side and back breakfalls both from a squatting and standing start, followed by shoulder roll to side breakfall, all which looked pretty equivalent to what I’ve seen in Aikido and Judo classes in the past. We followed with a partnered unbalancing drill where partners would grip each other at lapel and elbow and rock from side to side, taking turns sweeping the lifted foot of the other partner. Note: This looks like a good drill on first glance, but then I recall my first judo class, where we did a similar thing except rather than rock awkwardly back and forth taking turns, we walked forward and backward across the mat and either partner could sweep the other at any time. The difference is verisimilitude. At one point I swept my partner’s foot into his supporting leg, which resulted in a successful throw of course, but I was told that I should focus on only sweeping one leg, because double-leg sweeps would come “way, way down the belt ranks” and that I shouldn’t practice them yet. I’ll go for that. I was technically doing a technique other than the one assigned. It was still an interesting response worth soliciting. I followed that by going with the sweep on his next sweep so that my swept leg collided with his supporting leg. Neither of us went down, but he seemed surprised by it.

    The next technique was a defense against what Assistant Instructor called the “grab with a punch” except the punch was never thrown. The attack consisted of grasping the defender by the lapel with one’s right hand and raising the left hand in a vaguely threatening gesture, then pulling the defender close, although I couldn’t be sure what for. The defender then trapped the hand against his chest with his left straight-armed the attacker in the forehead, under the nose (which it was not, happily, suggested should be rammed up into the brain), or under the chin. After this attack, which I saw Assistant Instructor demonstrate to Other Noob would thoroughly preclude the attacker being able to strike with his left hand, the defender slid his left hand down the attacker’s grasping arm to his elbow and pushed the attacker’s right elbow toward the attacker’s left, then up, in a circular motion, which would presumably cause the attacker to lift his weight off of his right foot, which would then be swept for the throw. Note: As a long-time veteran of compliant striking arts, compliant grappling arts make me especially sad. At the very least one’s make-believe attacker in a compliant striking art just has to turn into a punching dummy. To practice compliant grappling your dance partner really has to know his part. My partner, who I’ll remind everybody is a Sanjuriu brown belt according to the Sanjuriu patch on his brown belt, wasn’t getting this one right at all. He was doing the straight-arm okay, but then instead of moving my elbow in a circle to get it to come up, he was pushing downward into my elbow with the stylus of his ulna which actually caused me to put MORE weight on the foot he was about to sweep, leaving me with the choice of either standing there stupidly while he tried unsuccessfully to sweep me or complying with the sweep. I did a little of both. I find the fact that he seemed not to grasp the basic principle behind the technique significant considering his rank and (one would presume) experience.

    The next technique was against the deadly cross-body right-handed wrist grab. The defender supinated the attacker’s hand and pushed his shoulder down in the standard standup crappling “standing armbar” position, then pushed him away, which caused weight to be shifted to the left foot, enabling the defender to sweep the right foot. I did this one with Assistant Instructor and played with him a little bit by stepping out with my left foot when pushed to the left rather than tottering up on one leg as if I had entered into a catatonic state. Rather than adjust his technique he merely went on with the foot sweep which didn’t particularly take me down and said something to the effect of, “See? Right down,” and stood back up. I later gave my brown belt partner the same trouble and Assistant Instructor told him, “These guys aren’t like your usual ukes back at the dojo are they? They don’t know which way to go!” Note: Assistant Instructor, if Other Noob and I didn’t know which way to go with your techniques, and that gave you trouble, what is likely to happen when someone on the infamous Street actually attacks you instead of coming to play compliant Sanjuriu with you at the gym? I also at one point “swept” my partner with more of a kick than a sweep (different foot position, I didn’t actually hit him), and he told me with what I took to be seriousness, that if I actually kicked a real opponent on the Street, I could hurt him and he might come back with friends or a gun. Now I know that a brown belt is hardly a spokesman for a style, but please tell me that this isn’t something he picked up in class or from an instructor. Don’t hurt the opponent because then he might take revenge? Things like this make me a sad Bully.

    Finally we did a defense against something Assistant Instructor called the “mugger grab.” Imagine if someone who didn’t know how to do a rear naked and had apparently had his biceps removed tried to put a standing rear naked on you from behind using only his left arm and then, against all combat logic, threw a right haymaker toward an area approximately one foot in front of your face. If this were to happen, you would step backwards with your left foot, reach up and block his punch with your right forearm before elbowing him with your right elbow, then pivot to your left, reach up and grab the shoulder and forearm of his left arm and “bow,” which will make him fall down. I wasn’t good at this technique apparently, because I was corrected once on my attacking form and once on my defending form. After a couple of really compliant go-arounds, I decided to cinch up the choke a little bit on Brown Belt, who discovered he was unable to turn to his left to finish the throw. He stopped and broke character and told me “No, you don’t still hold on with the choke. The elbow knocked all the wind out of you (the elbow strike was about six to eight inches below my solar plexus), so all you’re thinking about is trying to inhale, which is why I can go with your motion and throw you.” I was also told that I was throwing incorrectly since I did the throw with my hip to my opponent and my left leg behind his left leg. Assistant Instructor informed me that he had blown out his knee doing the same technique and that I should turn less so that no part of my body except for my shoulders and chest are in contact with the attacker. That way there’s no chance of him falling on my leg. Note: I have always stood in awe of the way Aikido practitioners expect people to just fall over when pushed or pulled in various directions rather than merely take a step to regain their balance as people in the real world are wont to do in the absence of something stopping their feet from moving.

    We finished up with a succinct review of the material and a bow-out, which was done toward the center of the mat, then toward the instructor, then toward the wall. For some reason these commands were given in Nihongo with phrases like, “Sensei ni…rei!” after the entire balance of the class had been conducted only in English.

    I finished up by helping (very little) with breaking down the mats and carrying them out to the Sanjuriumobile, which I mainly did since I had to retrieve my iPod from the car so I could go back into the gym to hit the treadmill, and spoke with the instructors a bit. The rather young-looking Head Instructor told me that he had been doing Sanjuriu for thirty years. He looks pretty young as I noted above. He gave me the card and pointed out that Sanjuriu trains three things, Karatejutsu, Aikijutsu and Bujutsu (the card also mentioned Kendo, Women’s Self Defense, and “Iaiido”), “so there’s no reason to go outside [of the style]” for additional knowledge. I pointed to the card and said, “Oh, Kendo! Do you guys put on the armor and hit each other with sticks and everything?” He said that they did, which means there is at least one minorly alive element to Sanjuriu training if he was being truthful. Further conversation with him revealed that he had taught Sanjuriu in Japan, somewhere near Kobe, where he says he lived for six years. He apparently went to Japan as a missionary in the mid-90s (he mentioned he was in Kobe for the earthquake) and stayed. I said, “Oh, so you switched to a work visa?” He said that he did so he could teach under his sensei (he had mentioned earlier that there were hundreds of Sanjuriu students in Japan) and so he got a visa as a “sensei” rather than as a “missionary” since “they don’t like missionaries over there.” I haven’t got around to looking it up, but was under the impression that you couldn’t go to Japan with a different visa and then acquire a work visa while you’re there, but I’ve never had anything other than a tourist visa, so I’ll plead ignorance. He did seem conversant enough with the locale to have traveled to Japan, but to spend six years there teaching a martial art with a Japanese origin to Japanese people…quite an accomplishment for someone so young.

    That’s about it for my report unless anybody has specific questions. This thread is probably already dead though. My overall assessment is that I agree with Errant108’s verdict on the second post.
    Last edited by MrGalt; 7/26/2007 10:00pm at .
  4. Pinan is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 12:10pm

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     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    MrGalt - Great write-up with what you saw/experienced!

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    We followed with a partnered unbalancing drill where partners would grip each other at lapel and elbow and rock from side to side, taking turns sweeping the lifted foot of the other partner. Note: This looks like a good drill on first glance, but then I recall my first judo class, where we did a similar thing except rather than rock awkwardly back and forth taking turns, we walked forward and backward across the mat and either partner could sweep the other at any time. The difference is verisimilitude. At one point I swept my partner’s foot into his supporting leg, which resulted in a successful throw of course, but I was told that I should focus on only sweeping one leg, because double-leg sweeps would come “way, way down the belt ranks” and that I shouldn’t practice them yet. I’ll go for that. I was technically doing a technique other than the one assigned. It was still an interesting response worth soliciting. I followed that by going with the sweep on his next sweep so that my swept leg collided with his supporting leg. Neither of us went down, but he seemed surprised by it.
    Odd that they would practice the unbalancing in such a static "form". In my old Judo class all unbalancing involved movement and with a throw. As far as you being able to do the throw with both legs? GOOD FOR YOU! In my class if the lower kyus could do that starting off that would be such a bonus, but it takes a combination of experience and technique since both legs being swept are ultimately the purpose of the throw. One leg is nice. Two legs are perfect. The height and drop you get from that technique is impressive and painful if you don't know how to fall. Still, if you could do that starting off (even though you did have the advantage of taking Judo), they should have given you a thumbs up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    The next technique was a defense against what Assistant Instructor called the “grab with a punch” except the punch was never thrown. The attack consisted of grasping the defender by the lapel with one’s right hand and raising the left hand in a vaguely threatening gesture, then pulling the defender close, although I couldn’t be sure what for. The defender then trapped the hand against his chest with his left straight-armed the attacker in the forehead, under the nose (which it was not, happily, suggested should be rammed up into the brain), or under the chin. After this attack, which I saw Assistant Instructor demonstrate to Other Noob would thoroughly preclude the attacker being able to strike with his left hand, the defender slid his left hand down the attacker’s grasping arm to his elbow and pushed the attacker’s right elbow toward the attacker’s left, then up, in a circular motion, which would presumably cause the attacker to lift his weight off of his right foot, which would then be swept for the throw. Note: As a long-time veteran of compliant striking arts, compliant grappling arts make me especially sad. At the very least one’s make-believe attacker in a compliant striking art just has to turn into a punching dummy. To practice compliant grappling your dance partner really has to know his part. My partner, who I’ll remind everybody is a Sanjuriu brown belt according to the Sanjuriu patch on his brown belt, wasn’t getting this one right at all. He was doing the straight-arm okay, but then instead of moving my elbow in a circle to get it to come up, he was pushing downward into my elbow with the stylus of his ulna which actually caused me to put MORE weight on the foot he was about to sweep, leaving me with the choice of either standing there stupidly while he tried unsuccessfully to sweep me or complying with the sweep. I did a little of both. I find the fact that he seemed not to grasp the basic principle behind the technique significant considering his rank and (one would presume) experience.
    Nice break down of the technique (or lack thereof of said technique). All things being equal if an individual does the cliche' of grabbing your lapel/collar and raises his hand in a threatening gesture regardless of intent beyond that - i.e. is going to throw the punch or just bully you, it's pointless to not address that threat. The grabbing of the collar is not the primary threat. I'm going to have to assume that since the punch was never thrown per what the instructor showed, that it was a "bully" situation? If I'm wrong feel free to call me on that one. I would think then containment of the grabbing hand only to control the attacker so that they cannot get away and stepping away from the direction of the potential punch sinking into an appropriate low stance while an augmented arm-bar is applied would suffice. From then you can lay in with a few knees, elbows, etc, depending on the overall threat. Would do you think?

    Man, I have no idea what the brown belt was thinking/doing..again...odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    Note: Assistant Instructor, if Other Noob and I didn’t know which way to go with your techniques, and that gave you trouble, what is likely to happen when someone on the infamous Street actually attacks you instead of coming to play compliant Sanjuriu with you at the gym? I also at one point “swept” my partner with more of a kick than a sweep (different foot position, I didn’t actually hit him), and he told me with what I took to be seriousness, that if I actually kicked a real opponent on the Street, I could hurt him and he might come back with friends or a gun. Now I know that a brown belt is hardly a spokesman for a style, but please tell me that this isn’t something he picked up in class or from an instructor. Don’t hurt the opponent because then he might take revenge? Things like this make me a sad Bully.
    I almost did a double take when I read this part. If you swept the foot properly and it was more of a kick, I can see their point where they want to see in the dojo that it's done properly akin to the throw as it's done in Judo (yes?). As long as they put out the caveat that in the street, sweeps and throws are hardly ever done "cleanly" or perfectly since your attacker is obviously not going to comply with anything short of pain that you inflict. So your kick IMHO was nothing more than an example of what will happen in real life. You practice in the dojo "perfected" techniques, but said techniques get augmented in the streets. And for them to say "don't kick your attacker."??!! If I did said sweep, I'd be doing the same thing you did, then following up with punches and kicks to the face/body when they were on the ground. It seems they are really sending a mixed message to their students. Appropriate response for the appropriate level of threat is what should be in order there and if you're taking someone down it warrents 'follow up techniques'.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    After a couple of really compliant go-arounds, I decided to cinch up the choke a little bit on Brown Belt, who discovered he was unable to turn to his left to finish the throw. He stopped and broke character and told me “No, you don’t still hold on with the choke. The elbow knocked all the wind out of you (the elbow strike was about six to eight inches below my solar plexus), so all you’re thinking about is trying to inhale, which is why I can go with your motion and throw you.” I was also told that I was throwing incorrectly since I did the throw with my hip to my opponent and my left leg behind his left leg. Assistant Instructor informed me that he had blown out his knee doing the same technique and that I should turn less so that no part of my body except for my shoulders and chest are in contact with the attacker. That way there’s no chance of him falling on my leg.
    I'm glad you applied the choke the right way. Did you pull back taking him off balance? I'm not crazy on the idea of an elbow to the solar plexus only because a muggers hold as I've seen it applied, requires a grab...CHOKE...and hard pull back of the victim. Pulling them off balance as they literally bend backwards. Throwing an elbow in would generate momentum in the direction of the pull and may not help - but that's just me. If he was smart, he should have at the very least brought both hands up to the arm holding, pulled down to try and lessen the pressure while at the same time stepping back with the appropriate leg (left or right depending on which side the grab took place), which should stop the pulling, and then as you did..keeping the hip close...you leg position seemed fine, and then bow. But...corrected you? It seems they do a variation of throws.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    We finished up with a succinct review of the material and a bow-out, which was done toward the center of the mat, then toward the instructor, then toward the wall. For some reason these commands were given in Nihongo with phrases like, “Sensei ni…rei!” after the entire balance of the class had been conducted only in English.
    Interesting. So traditional Japanese was not use to describe any of the throws, blocks, punches, etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    That’s about it for my report unless anybody has specific questions. This thread is probably already dead though. My overall assessment is that I agree with Errant108’s verdict on the second post.
    Do they make student's sign contracts? Any mention of cost per month? And do you think it's a McDojo in the making?
  5. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 3:10pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mr. Galt,

    Thanks for stopping by. My guess on the brown belt would be one of our students, or teenagers. The only other one we have is an older guy. I'm pretty much done with the thread as well, so my response will be short and to the point.

    First of all, anyone who has ever taught knows the pain in the ass of trying to teach a technique against an uncompliant uki. One of the things that really bugs me is when a new student says something like, "Yeah, but what if did this?" As if the single technique he is learning is the only thing in the arsenal of techniques that could possibly work. I also find it distasteful when instructing a person who is capable of handling more, but hasn't really said as much. I don't teach out at the fitness center, but I can't imagine taking someone just walking into my local health club and slamming them on the mats. Even if they weren't being compliant students. There's something just not proper about it and it probably doesn't make good business sense to get a un-uniformed health club member pissed at you anyway.

    I remember working out with a Judo black-belt recently in Oak Ridge. He said as much when he came in and we started slowly together to see how much either of us could take (or would be willing to take). He also practiced his foot sweep in a three or five step motion. As an experienced randori participant, I like the static position better because the up and down motion of the weight on either leg is better to spot while training in this manner. Different strokes I guess. My participant was well versed in his stuff and was tossing me around with authority when the countering started. I can only assume his training didn't inform him that extending so much energy into a throw was just easy pickings for a counter.

    Every technique you described was first belt level. So, I really don't think you have a leg to stand on really. You basically have broken down a handful of techniques you worked on with a teenager in our system in a health club without disclosing what you were capable of taking regarding punishment on the mats. Could you realistically expect something else?

    Had it be me, I'd done the same thing as your partner for the most part, although I can sniff a troll I'm sure much quicker than some others in our school. Now, were you to come to the dojo and begin resistance, personally I just hit you harder or change techniques on you. If you demonstrated that you really weren't interested in learning that particular technique then I'd just ask you to stay after class and we could work out together however you wanted after the underbelts left. That offer will remain open.

    Actually, what I'd really prefer is to see you work out with that same brown-belt however you wanted. If it's who I think it is (Brandon), he's actually quite good for a seventeen year old kid. The trick is getting him to be aggressive. He's just a generally nice person and hardly the type I'd expect to see tossing on a stranger.
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/27/2007 3:13pm at .
  6. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 4:47pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You tempt me, SB. So I went to a first class and saw what a real first class would look like. Could I realistically expect different? Yes, I could realistically expect to see techniques that look like they would work in a resistant environment on the first day. I could realistically expct to see a brown belt do what you say is a "first belt level" technique in a manner that indicated to me that he understood the principle behind it.

    I'm not saying this to flame or troll. I was tempted to describe it entirely neutrally. I left out a lot of really unfavorable things I could have said. I could have mentioned that the fact that two of the four regular Sanjuriu students there were wearing karate gis. I remember when I was starting Isshinryu back in 1995 when BJJ was first catching on. We tried grappling in lightweight karate gis. There were sleeves and collars flying everywhere. Are you really going to sit there and tell me all about how hard you guys grapple in those jackets? Maybe it's a little metrosexual of me, but I think clothes go at least a little way toward making the man.

    I heard Head Instructor talk to another health club member who had just walked in about how Karate is all about katas and meridians and something about "pinpoint accuracy," which I am guessing is referring to hitting pressure points. We give pressure points short shrift around here, but I didn't mention it since I wasn't taught it directly.

    I didn't mention who I was and where I was from until after the class for a reason. I've had ample opportunity to realize that when you tell people you have a lot of experience walking into a dojo they either go out of their way to impress you or dismiss you as just a crosstrainer, and either way you don't get the real student experience. I notice that while Head Instructor claimed that he didn't have time for the Internet (everybody is always above it) he made sure to ask what my screen name on Bullshido was twice. I wonder if I would have got different reactions if I had given him different names.

    Regarding your offer for me to come back in to the dojo again so you and Brandon can "hit me harder" and give me the "punishment" that I can take on the mats...no, thanks. I never claimed I was coming over for a challenge match, and I surely never claimed I was coming over to get sucker punched. I wanted to sample your curriculum, and I think I did. And for the record, while I disagree with the contents of your lessons, they're extremely well taught. The class had a theme, was broken down into logical, progressive content units, and was well reviewed at the end. If it had only endeavoured to teach me something I cared to know I would have profited greatly.
  7. El Neko is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 4:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damn, guys, pack up, we're not gonna be able to prove anything about the lacking on this system, they're much faster than us at coming up with excuses.

    Great work Mr.Galt on visiting the schooland giving your point of view base on your experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  8. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/27/2007 6:06pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    You tempt me, SB. So I went to a first class and saw what a real first class would look like. Could I realistically expect different? Yes, I could realistically expect to see techniques that look like they would work in a resistant environment on the first day. I could realistically expct to see a brown belt do what you say is a "first belt level" technique in a manner that indicated to me that he understood the principle behind it.

    I'm not saying this to flame or troll. I was tempted to describe it entirely neutrally. I left out a lot of really unfavorable things I could have said. I could have mentioned that the fact that two of the four regular Sanjuriu students there were wearing karate gis. I remember when I was starting Isshinryu back in 1995 when BJJ was first catching on. We tried grappling in lightweight karate gis. There were sleeves and collars flying everywhere. Are you really going to sit there and tell me all about how hard you guys grapple in those jackets? Maybe it's a little metrosexual of me, but I think clothes go at least a little way toward making the man.

    I heard Head Instructor talk to another health club member who had just walked in about how Karate is all about katas and meridians and something about "pinpoint accuracy," which I am guessing is referring to hitting pressure points. We give pressure points short shrift around here, but I didn't mention it since I wasn't taught it directly.

    I didn't mention who I was and where I was from until after the class for a reason. I've had ample opportunity to realize that when you tell people you have a lot of experience walking into a dojo they either go out of their way to impress you or dismiss you as just a crosstrainer, and either way you don't get the real student experience. I notice that while Head Instructor claimed that he didn't have time for the Internet (everybody is always above it) he made sure to ask what my screen name on Bullshido was twice. I wonder if I would have got different reactions if I had given him different names.

    Regarding your offer for me to come back in to the dojo again so you and Brandon can "hit me harder" and give me the "punishment" that I can take on the mats...no, thanks. I never claimed I was coming over for a challenge match, and I surely never claimed I was coming over to get sucker punched. I wanted to sample your curriculum, and I think I did. And for the record, while I disagree with the contents of your lessons, they're extremely well taught. The class had a theme, was broken down into logical, progressive content units, and was well reviewed at the end. If it had only endeavoured to teach me something I cared to know I would have profited greatly.
    Dude, I don't know you at all. Never even met you other than some polite exchanges via email. If you think for a second that my invitation to come practice with me is some sort of pissing contest from my side, then I apologize. I'm not that kind of person at all. I'm a pastor in a local church and it's my life's desire to get better in the art and make people people better martial artists. But that doesn't happen at the first belt level, and for you to somehow think that critizing some yellow belt techniques gives you some footing, is insulting. You and your ilk have chosen, for whatever reason, to bash our school in a public forum.

    Personally, I despise violence. I can't even finish a randori session without apologizing to half the school for using something they weren't ready for. If you think my invitation is just put out there to sucker punch you and get into a fight, then again, I apologize. If however you want to come try a resistant attack methodology in the dojo, then you can't get pissed off about getting met with equally resistant counters and blows. In other words, don't bash us if you don't want to get bashed back.

    We teach slow for form at early belt ranks. That's just the way we do it. Can an early belt level in our system really stand up to fully resistant attacks? I have no idea, but I do know that I can after six years of training. Can I be beaten on the mats? Damn straight I can, and have. More than once too. But if you can breakfall and keep your temper, then by all means, bring it. But don't start on the "you can't do that" stuff like so many people who crosstrain with us start doing.

    About two weeks ago, I caught wind of someone with substantial MMA experience visiting us. All he said during the sparring session was "you can't use that... that's small joint... grab me here..." Whatever.

    I'm pretty much done with this thread because I'm confident in the training I've receieved. I have lots to learn and I'm open to getting schooled on the mats because it will only make me better. But I never and hope to God I never loose my cool in training. If you come to allow us to teach things equivilant to whatever belt rank you have in whatever art you took it in, then maybe we can have a good session together. But don't hear it as a challenge, so much as defense against your challenge. Once again, we're not the ones jumping on here to bash other art forms. That'd be you guys. If you want it, send your five best from your school. We'll start with one of ours and I will advocate like hell to be that one. If we need to add more in the circle, we will.

    I read your post-- all of it. What are your primary complaints? That a first time student can't perform a technique against a fully resistant choke hold? Or is that a brown-belt didn't quite feel up to elbowing you full force in the gut (which btw we teach a follow up to the balls if they don't instantly budge)?

    I've worked out with people from other forms. It takes us both a good 20-minutes to get used to each other and learn how to work together in a way that avoids injury, but we've done it. But don't come in as noob and then get pissed because we didn't jack you around the mats. We're teaching techniques... lots and lots of techniques. Randori will determine which of them you choose to utilize.

    In fact, you should come to one our randori sessions and get in the center of the circle. We'll adjust to your speed, learn to trust you, and work out together in a beneficial manner. But that level of intensity involves trust, and trust only comes form knowing a person.

    Once again, this board chose to piss on us. We didn't ask for it. We teach slowly and we teach the way we damn full well want to teach. Anyone that doesn't like it can go off on us as much as that want. But take the circle and prove your ilk or for the love of God, get off our backs.
  9. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 1:04pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maybe I was entirely alone in thinking I detected hostility on your part. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions. You are losing your mellow a bit though.

    Regarding the MMA guy who stormed your dojo, video or it didn't happen. We’ve discussed small joint manipulation and its essential uselessness by e-mail in the past anyway.

    When I criticized your brown belt friend, I first of all did not “choke” him. I merely didn’t release the light hold I was supposed to be putting on him (improperly) when I was expected to. Rather than respond to that, he chose to verbally remind me of the script I was expected to follow. The elbow also wasn’t too light, it was entirely in the wrong place. If you elbow ANYBODY off-center about six inches below the solar plexus, it won’t do anything. That was my problem.

    You're using another common tactic now. I can't accurately assess your art based on seeing one class, and a beginner level class at that. So I need to go to ten? Twenty? Do I need to study your art until I'm a black belt in it before I can criticize it properly? By then I’d be engaging in cognitive dissonance reduction strategies to convince myself that I wasn’t wasting my time all those years, and my objectivity would be completely gone.

    Moving on, I'm going to say that I like your idea that you simply don't know whether an early belt level student in your style can defend himself against fully resistant attacks. What I don't like is your notion that you know that you can. You don't practice with real resistance, so you don't know what it's like. That's the point so many of us have tried to make for pages and pages now. I know what randori is like from my own aikido, kenpo, and karate experiences. It is not a fight. If you listen to yourself you'll realize what you're saying. It takes about twenty minutes for the two randori partners to feel each other out, right? Then they can throw each other beautifully and safely. That's the absolute OPPOSITE of what training to FIGHT is supposed to be, man! You say you’re confident in your training and “open to getting schooled on the mats” but you’re not. You’re open to having somebody come in and demonstrate things to you that you might not have seen, but you’ve told us time and time again that you do NOT compete, you do NOT spar, and sparring is “stupid,” for reasons including the fact that you are not “permitted to kill” your opponent. You are NOT open to getting schooled on the mats, and I honestly hope for your sake it’s because you are NOT as confident in your art as you say you are.

    So let me get this straight: you, essentially a pacifist, are throwing down the glove for our “five best” to come over and fight you. No, wait, you don’t fight. You’re too deadly. Our five best can come and do a randori circle with you. For the randori challenge you have given, let me start by saying that I don’t have a school, and bullshido is not a school. If five of us as individuals chose to come to your school and do a randori circle with you it might be fun, but so what? Having a bunch of people come over to participate in compliant drills with you doesn’t prove or disprove anything. Why doesn’t everybody come over to my house and we’ll play some Halo 2? It will be equally valid and the nachos will be better. As for getting off your backs, we’re not. I came to one of your practices to see what you do and I did. I wasn’t there to heckle, I wasn’t there to troll. I just experimented a little bit to see what would happen, but for the most part I was a fine n00b. I wasn’t there evangelizing for aliveness. I doubt anybody is going to come invade your school and advocate your changing. What we do on this forum however is our business. If you feel so persecuted, don’t read it. If you’re worried that we are a bad influence on your google results or something, make a better advertising page, or better yet, write up a dojo review for your school right here and then have all your students visit it incessantly. Put links everywhere. Pleas for us to “get off your backs” shall continue to fall on deaf ears.
  10. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    7/28/2007 4:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man MrGalt, I owe you some green varrots for this
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
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