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  1. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 2:36pm


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So now you're not even good enough for 'sport MA' ?

    Sorry, got that wrong. You're all far too tough and with your deadly instincts would not be able to spar in case you damaged your opponent.

    Hmmm. I'm afraid, very very afraid - that it's yet another layer of guano.
  2. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 2:40pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash
    A) Sanjuriu was founded by a man named Sudo for which we can't find any records or even get a full name.
    Founded? More likely transmitted, but without the evidence, we'll have it your way. It seems the people that could answer your question, either a) don't know you're asking it; or b) don't think its important enough to address.

    B) Sanjuriu teaches aikijutsu but no one apparently has any rank in it.
    Sanjuriu teaches sanjuriu, and yeah, a third of the art is aikijutsu.

    C) Sanjuriu has secret documents
    By secret you mean they're not on full display for you to purchase at your local bookstore? Get Paul Arel's book if you are so curious, then ask him which techniques came from Sudo Sensei.

    D) You can't give us definitive proof because your techniques are so secret that they can't be shown to anyone who hasn't wasted a bucket load of money on your system.
    We give 30 free days of training to any student that wants to check us out. If you don't like it, we happily recommend neighboring dojos. We have contracts, but a person can choose whether or not they want to sign it. The price for signing a contract is the same price as paying monthly. There are no "deals" given to people who sign up by contract or auto-withdrawl.

    You need a healthy dose of common sense and reality. Can't you suspend your belief just long enough to consider the very real possibility that someone made up the system and are making money off suckers like yourself?
    First, you are implying that I'm a sucker and you've never trained with me, or anyone from our school. That makes you the fool, not me.

    Second, if the techniques work then why would I care what its called and where it came from?

    Third, whose hiding behind the web? The address to our dojo is on the website. Feel free to drop by. I'd recommend the Powell dojo since the Oak Ridge dojo is undergoing construction. Either way, come on by. Tell us you think its crap, sign the waiver, and take the mats. Better yet, tell our instructor you think its crap and take the mat with him. The only rule will be that we get to film it and post it on the web along with your real name, the name of your art, and your creditials.
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/11/2007 2:42pm at .
  3. Shamash is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/11/2007 3:05pm


     Style: ex-Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass

    And to top it all off, in Tennessee, training yourself for competition is training yourself not to strike your opponenet. All of which leads to incomplete technqiues and poor fighting habits.
    I wasn't aware that there was no boxing matches held in the entire state of Tennessee.


    Are you honestly telling me that we don't have a right to be suspicious? Come on SocracticBass, there is no way I'm believing a full grown adult has such a lack of reasoning skills. Put yourself in our place.

    I'm glad to know I'm hiding behind the web as opposed to hiding behind a secret document, fabricated history, and teh deadly. Let me put it this way. My martial ability sucks, however; there is an important reason why I know it sucks. I've actually sparred against people who knew what they were doing. I've had my ass repeatably owned by friends who enter submission wrestling trournaments. This is the main reason why I understand that I can't stop a takedown with a spinning cresent kick, or eye gouge my way out of a submission.

    Apparently you are to deadly to compete, however; if I can get my ass to your powell dojo I can expect to be humiliated by a potent wrist lock, kick to the balls, or eye rake. Do you honestly think making asinine challenges over the internet is a rational way explain the multitude of inconsistencies in Sanjuriu? Assuming that I come to your dojo, get my assed kicked, video taped, and scolded by the resurrected spirit of Musashi for my misdeeds, it still WON"T change the fact that your style is probably made up.

    To be honest at this point I'm not concerned with whether or not any of you guys can actually fight. What blows my mind is the fabricated Japanese history and the self delusion. Why portray yourself as something you are not? I mean there is nothing wrong with doing aikido and karate as long as you understand you can't instantly take out street fighters with a pressure point or take on multiple armed attackers with compliant throws.
    Last edited by Shamash; 7/11/2007 4:08pm at . Reason: typo
  4. Shamash is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2007 6:36pm


     Style: ex-Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass

    I don't want to be misleading. Sanjuriu doesn't have MMA fighters, we train in Sanjuriu. Some Sanjuriu guys have dabbled in MMA, but we have more MMA guys taking our art than visa versa. I don't claim to speak for them, or anyone. I'm just little ole me; I'm not the spokes-person for anyone else.

    :)
    I'm a bit confused by this statement. You don't have MMA fighters but your website lists MMA as one of the styles practiced. What does the typical MMA class look like? Is the MMA class where Sanjuriu students can be exposed to something a bit different?

    Looking at http://www.sanjuriu.org/schedule_of_classes.htm , I noticed several interestings things. I didn't know you also taught kendo, kenjutsu, and Iaijutsu. Are the three sword arts covered in Sanjuriu or do your instructors actually have a rank in kendo, Kenjutsu, and Iaijutsu seperately.

    Sudo Sensei must have been a true master to learn aikijutsu, karate, kendo, kenjutsu, and iaijutsu and then compile it into one system.
  5. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2007 9:31pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shamash,

    I'm pretty much done with the thread until we get a randori video up. You can criticize that all day long too, it's what you guys are good at. We'll keep training. My instructor's kendo black belt came during his stay in Japan. He's never mentioned Iaijutsu to me, and I've never asked. In two sword classes I took though, he was very technical about draws and re-sheathing the sword. I couldn't figure out why in the heck it mattered as long as I could fight with one, but to him it does. So, there must be some iaijutsu history in there someplace. I can't speak for Sudo Sensei, but I suspect some of what he teaches was enhanced by the cross-disciplines. I feel certain that kenjutsu was taught prior to my instructor's visit to Japan.

    Once again, if you ever manage to pull him over for an nikkyo violation, be sure to have him flash his ID.
  6. Shamash is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2007 5:29am


     Style: ex-Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass

    You can criticize that all day long too, it's what you guys are good at.

    You are still missing the point of my argument. I think it would be immoral for a very sucessful professional fighter to suddenly claim to be a master of a previously unheard of martial art taught to him by an unkown Japanese master for which no records or evidence exists. Whether or not you can fight is a completely different matter and its one that I'm not concerned with.

    I wouldn't have any problem with Sanjuriu if it stoped portraying itself as being based on ancient Japanese traditions and stoped claiming to teach aikijutsu. Also your website lists a crap load of styles. You need to quit advertising those styles until you find someone with verifiable rank in those styles. Just having rank in Sanjuriu isn't going to cut it.

    Like I say, I'm not overly concerned with whether not you guys can fight. It looks like aikido and karate and I have nothing against those arts if the students have a realistic understanding of their abilities. I've never been to your school though I will comment that people familar with Japanese martial arts were not impressed with the Sanjuriu vids. If you post vids of adequate randori a lot of the critism will go away, however; that still won't address the inconsistencies in your history.

    You need to visit some of the other threads in the Martail Art BS section. We have to deal with everthing from people claiming to throw chi fireballs to 21 years olds on an ego trip. Nartually we are very skeptical.
  7. Lujke is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2007 6:17am


     Style: Systema & BJJ noob,x BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    Shamash,

    I'm pretty much done with the thread until we get a randori video up. You can criticize that all day long too, it's what you guys are good at.
    Hi again, SB.

    I don't know if you'll be interested in this, but I'd like to offer a discussion about some technical points in some of the slow motion demos from your website. I'm happy to ignore the fact that it's all slow motion and there's no resistance, and just talk to you about the technical aspects of the defences and counters shown.

    Just so you know where I am coming from, I spent many years training with the Bujinkan. I don't say this in the hope of impressing you or anyone else here. The organisation as a whole is not highly regarded on Bullshido. (You can read the official article about it here). My reason for mentioning it is twofold:

    1) The origin of the material taught in the Bujinkan, as far as it can be accurately determined, is similar to the origin claimed for some of the Sanjuriu techniques: feudal japan, old style jujutsu, koryu weapon skills. Basically, it comes from more or less the same time and place.

    2) The primary training method is compliant 2 person drills, much like those shown on the videos on the Sanjuriu website.

    As I said, I spent many years training like this, attempting to understand the technical details of the material. I'm not going to claim to be particularly good, or anything special, but I hope I do have enough of a background to engage in some meaningful discussion about these things.

    All that said, I'm not going to waste my time or yours if you're not interested, so just let me know if you would like to get into some detailed discussion about some of the demonstrations shown on the website. I can promise to be detailed, specific, and not to get into anything as assinine as 'my style does it this way, you should too'. I'd just like to discuss some of the things I see in the videos, and to find out whether you are already seeing the same stuff.

    Regards

    Lujke.
  8. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2007 8:44am


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lujke
    Hi again, SB.

    I don't know if you'll be interested in this, but I'd like to offer a discussion about some technical points in some of the slow motion demos from your website. I'm happy to ignore the fact that it's all slow motion and there's no resistance, and just talk to you about the technical aspects of the defences and counters shown.

    Just so you know where I am coming from, I spent many years training with the Bujinkan. I don't say this in the hope of impressing you or anyone else here. The organisation as a whole is not highly regarded on Bullshido. (You can read the official article about it here). My reason for mentioning it is twofold:

    1) The origin of the material taught in the Bujinkan, as far as it can be accurately determined, is similar to the origin claimed for some of the Sanjuriu techniques: feudal japan, old style jujutsu, koryu weapon skills. Basically, it comes from more or less the same time and place.

    2) The primary training method is compliant 2 person drills, much like those shown on the videos on the Sanjuriu website.

    As I said, I spent many years training like this, attempting to understand the technical details of the material. I'm not going to claim to be particularly good, or anything special, but I hope I do have enough of a background to engage in some meaningful discussion about these things.

    All that said, I'm not going to waste my time or yours if you're not interested, so just let me know if you would like to get into some detailed discussion about some of the demonstrations shown on the website. I can promise to be detailed, specific, and not to get into anything as assinine as 'my style does it this way, you should too'. I'd just like to discuss some of the things I see in the videos, and to find out whether you are already seeing the same stuff.

    Regards


    Lujke.
    I've glanced at these videos, but you should be aware this didn't come from our Knoxville location. I think it might be Colorado. A conversation about someone else's video doesn't seem proper to me with an invite to do so. I think someone from the Colorado school should probably have that conversation. It would feel odd to me to be criticizing something that didn't come from us. Still, I did notice a couple of things in the videos and I'd be curious to see if we noticed the same things.
  9. Lujke is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2007 11:59am


     Style: Systema & BJJ noob,x BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    I've glanced at these videos, but you should be aware this didn't come from our Knoxville location. I think it might be Colorado. A conversation about someone else's video doesn't seem proper to me with an invite to do so. I think someone from the Colorado school should probably have that conversation. It would feel odd to me to be criticizing something that didn't come from us. Still, I did notice a couple of things in the videos and I'd be curious to see if we noticed the same things.
    Fair enough. Perhaps we can have that conversation via PMs (to spare anyone's blushes) when you have a few more posts. You get the ability to use private messages on Bullshido when you reach 50 posts.
  10. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2007 2:21pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Lujke makes a good point when he mentions he comes from a Bujinkan background. They aren't the posterboys for alive training, and the fact that we've learned what NOT to do also gives us some good background, as long as we see our experience for what it is/was. I myself have done karate, which is given a slight bit of respect on occasion here, kenpo, which is given none, wushu and capoeira, which are regarded (by me as well) as folk dancing that happen to have some kicks and/or punches as movements, and even a little bit of aikido, although I didn't find it to my liking since I was also studying kenpo at the time and was all about the slappity goodness thereof.

    I don't even know where I'm going with this, which probably means that I should think more and write less, but I guess I just wanted to mention that this isn't really about our styles are better than yours, but more about a certain evidence-based way of looking at the subject at hand rather than accepting things based on faith or the charisma of whoever said it or our own subjective experiences. I think David (SB) has actually made some progress in that he's not going to rush to defend the Colorado group's practices. Of course, that's offset by statements like, "fully resistant randori is a fight to the death," and "I think we should [ban cross-training]" as well as the fear that your entire art might be written on a single piece of paper (your menkyo) yet you've spent six years learning it.
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