Sanjuriu ??????

**kiaiki** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 3:13am

SocraticBass - you've stopped answering me - was it soething I said?

I have asked and asked for facts and met with nothing about the origins of your art and the 2 'Shihan' heading it up. I don't need to inspect it, I can smell it from here. Sorry, as I say, IMHO your art looks like it is built on quasi-Japanese terminology with nothing to back it up. If it works for you, fine, but we're on this forum to expose any dubious claims or practice.

Like I said, claims need to be backed up for the sake of beginners who may be duped and others who may get embroiled in nasty legal stuff, especially if there is a serious injury.

Good luck, but I'm not going round in circles with this one any more unless one of these 'Shihan' appears here with evidence to be judged.

P.S. Update - Reale is now 'Hanshi' according to this link of funny photos. Now who awarded him that? Let me guess....

http://www.sanjuriucolorado.com/Gallery.html

The link is to video clips of techniques:
Click on this one: 'Video clip of a slow motion demonstration of a basic shoulder lockup and throw. 'The guy is doing a slomo demo. Ok. But he does not move his feet and there is no evidence of kuzushi whatsoever. Maybe it was 'simulated'.

Or try this: 'arm breaking ippon seionage harai goshi from an attack with a club'. The strike is pitiful, the ippon seionage pretty poor and the 'arm breaking' occurs without ever applying any leverage whatever. I've never heard of two throws in one, or couldn't he make his mind up which he was doing in his 'ippon seionage harai goshi' .

Now I truly know the quality of this art - ancient or modern it really sucks. Thanks for a huge belly laugh - I cried Reale tears.....the guy really has the physique for the Grandmaster Sokeship so why not go all the way?

Can't take anymore....got to go and lie down in the dark!! :)

**SocraticBass** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 8:15am

Originally Posted by Neko687

if I were asking you to mail me your only copy of a document I would totally understand this as a relatively decent excuse, however for a scan... it just sounds like a cop out.

But if my menkyo license contains the techniques we teach for menkyo one, then basically I've just given you my art. Why would I do that? If I want Judo, I can buy a book and rent a video. If I want aikido I can read Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (which btw is a great book), but if you want Sanjuriru, you can't have it unless you're actually in our dojo recording what you translate with pen and paper.

We have one book in our system. It's for sale only to first menkyo students. Maybe its just me, but I don't think the Japanese arts were meant to be pimped out in books and instructional videos.

Call it an yet another philosophical difference.

**SocraticBass** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 8:28am

Originally Posted by kiaiki

SocraticBass - you've stopped answering me - was it soething I said?

Not at all. You just keep asking the same questions.

I have asked and asked for facts and met with nothing about the origins of your art and the 2 'Shihan' heading it up. I don't need to inspect it, I can smell it from here. Sorry, as I say, IMHO your art looks like it is built on quasi-Japanese terminology with nothing to back it up. If it works for you, fine, but we're on this forum to expose any dubious claims or practice.

I told you that it came from Sudo Sensei in the 1950's at a time when the first occidental black-belts were being popularized in the United States. I also told you that this wasn't my claim, but the claim of a man with extensive martial arts experience. You could always ask him the history of sanzyu-ryu jujitsu.

Good luck, but I'm not going round in circles with this one any more unless one of these 'Shihan' appears here with evidence to be judged.

That sounds like a plan. Of course the alternative is that you could always challenge one of them via personal email.

P.S. Update - Reale is now 'Hanshi' according to this link of funny photos. Now who awarded him that? Let me guess....

Looks like my terminology is behind the times.

I've never heard of two throws in one,

And you're dogging our training? You've probably never seen a throw in Taikyoku one either.

**kiaiki** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 8:29am

Hehe. Look at your own art's website with slomo techniques etc. If it's so secret why show it? Oh and don't forget this thread has also seen your first belt grading syllabus, so now's the time to disembowel yourself:
Ploy 1. It's too secret to transmit unless you have spent $$$$$$ and gained our scroll and then bought our book.
Ploy 2. We can't identify our secret masters or our secret training but be assured we are superhuman 8th Dan Hanshihansshihans.

Are you sure they aren't Scientologists too?

Seriously, if the vids exemplify what you learn, the best technique I can advise involves travelling far away for counselling and finding a new art.

I've been applying armlocks for 45 years and cross trained in many other arts - but we're not talking about me and who I could beat, we're discussing video of some awful awful MA. The vid shows rubbish technique with absolutely no effect on the arm. Reale ain't for real, sorry. It's comedy, folks, but not as we know it! I don't do MMA, but I'd give the fat guy about 30 seconds before a choke-out or a heart attack.:) :)

**Grashnak** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 8:41am

Originally Posted by SocraticBass

But if my menkyo license contains the techniques we teach for menkyo one, then basically I've just given you my art. Why would I do that? If I want Judo, I can buy a book and rent a video. If I want aikido I can read Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (which btw is a great book), but if you want Sanjuriru, you can't have it unless you're actually in our dojo recording what you translate with pen and paper.

We have one book in our system. It's for sale only to first menkyo students. Maybe its just me, but I don't think the Japanese arts were meant to be pimped out in books and instructional videos.

Call it an yet another philosophical difference.

This is just possibly the lamest excuse I have ever heard for not showing someone your credentials. OMG, you might be able to steal my art if you actually saw what was on my scroll. I'm sorry, but if your "art" can be learned by someone reading your scroll, then your art can't be very complex.

And you once again display a condescending attitude with your holier than thou "japanese arts" aren't meant to be pimped out comment. Particularly amusing since you've yet to provide any evidence that you actual have any Japanese connection to your art at all.

**Locu5** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 9:03am

Originally Posted by SocraticBass

I dunno. Someone told me that one of our kids took his division. Like I said, I really don't follow the MMA tourneys and have never been to one.

SNIP

What I took from your reply was some of your guys may have done MMA and one of your kids may have won a kid's MMA competition. Without without the specifics, I am going to assume basically no, you do not compete and that a few of your guys may have tried but they didn't train to compete and didn't win (if they had won, I guarantee you the school would have known). I would submit that you do your students and school a disservice by not promoting competition in the various types of tournaments out there. Without this pressure testing, your technique and application will suffer ultimately. Lack of competition leads to inbred techniques and habits.

**El Neko** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 10:23am

Originally Posted by SocraticBass

But if my menkyo license contains the techniques we teach for menkyo one, then basically I've just given you my art. Why would I do that? If I want Judo, I can buy a book and rent a video. If I want aikido I can read Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (which btw is a great book), but if you want Sanjuriru, you can't have it unless you're actually in our dojo recording what you translate with pen and paper.

We have one book in our system. It's for sale only to first menkyo students. Maybe its just me, but I don't think the Japanese arts were meant to be pimped out in books and instructional videos.

Call it an yet another philosophical difference.

Nothing philosophical about it, so far you have shown disdain for sport martial arts, the DO vs Jutsu debate, Sparring and now a disdain for books and videos teaching REAL techniques from REAL martial arts, what's next? a disdain for the 21st Century?

so far you have shown nothing to convince me that your art is legit, and it seems that you have grown jaded to defend it here, so why don't we all try to get somebody with knowledge of the art in here.....

P.S. you have a menkyo and barely know the history of your art? am I missing something here?

**Shamash** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 10:34am

Originally Posted by SocraticBass

But if my menkyo license contains the techniques we teach for menkyo one, then basically I've just given you my art. Why would I do that? If I want Judo, I can buy a book and rent a video. If I want aikido I can read Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (which btw is a great book), but if you want Sanjuriru, you can't have it unless you're actually in our dojo recording what you translate with pen and paper.

We have one book in our system. It's for sale only to first menkyo students. Maybe its just me, but I don't think the Japanese arts were meant to be pimped out in books and instructional videos.

Do you have any idea how asinine this sounds. I've tried really hard to give you the benefit of doubt but I'm ready to call utter bullshit on Sanjuriu. Lets see what we know so far.

A) Sanjuriu was founded by a man named Sudo for which we can't find any records or even get a full name.

B) Sanjuriu teaches aikijutsu but no one apparently has any rank in it.

C) Sanjuriu has secret documents

D) You can't give us definitive proof because your techniques are so secret that they can't be shown to anyone who hasn't wasted a bucket load of money on your system.

You need a healthy dose of common sense and reality. Can't you suspend your belief just long enough to consider the very real possibility that someone made up the system and are making money off suckers like yourself? Even if you still justify Sanjuriu's inconsistencies with irrational excuses, I recommend that you go visit other dojo's and compare what they do to Sanjuriu's. There is both a bjj and judo school in Knoxville. What would be wrong with you trying a class of each and seeing how Sanjuriu compares with styles that aren't fictional and that train with resistance.

**kiaiki** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 11:48am

Look at the website guys and judge for yourselves. A fat old man in a dark blue gi teaching terrible techniques with invented quasi-Japanesey names to a gullible group with more money than sense? Hanshi shihan, secret teachings, secret qualifications and history? What does that sound like?

SocraticBass: Whatever you call it, shomen-uchi or 'Taikyoku one', the attack was slow and weak, only outdone by the even more pitiful defence.

The best kept secret in the whole shebang is their ability to perform any MA technique properly. The ability of the 'Hanshi' is shown here (I'll post the link again, as it's too funny to miss and some of you are only just logging on in the USA and I wouldn't want to deprive you!):

http://www.sanjuriucolorado.com/Gallery.html

The link is to video clips of techniques:
Click on this one: 'Video clip of a slow motion demonstration of a basic shoulder lockup and throw. 'The guy is doing a slomo demo. Ok. But he does not move his feet and there is no evidence of kuzushi whatsoever. Maybe it was 'simulated'.

The 'knife defence' (or rubber small tanto defence) attempts to hold the arm holding the weapon at the hand and shoulder, not even bothering about the elbow, let alone the other arm. Pitiful or what?

Or try this: 'arm breaking ippon seionage harai goshi from an attack with a club'.
Only there's no armlock, no harai goshi and no real attack, just a poor seionage worth a lot less than 'ippon'. Still, only a Hanshi can perform 2 throws simultaneously. Rock on!! :)

As your techniques seem to have a medley of Judo, Karate and Aikido names, here's a little bit of fun to let you know the speed at which demo techniques need to be done:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RK6eHEtRzk4 - really fun demo from Shudokan (my former style but not as extreme).

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk5521cuuLA
Some slow techs for you to learn (watch for the role of atemi and kuzushi)
The guy is called Sensei, incorrectly, as he is 2nd Dan and therefore a Sempai. Not a Hanshi amongst them, but - now tell me your MA is worth pursuing when even your Hanshi can only waddle?

Both are Yoshinkan Aikido, which is at the 'hard' end of the Aikido spectrum.

**SocraticBass** · Posted On: 7/11/2007 2:25pm

Originally Posted by Locu5

What I took from your reply was some of your guys may have done MMA and one of your kids may have won a kid's MMA competition. Without without the specifics, I am going to assume basically no, you do not compete and that a few of your guys may have tried but they didn't train to compete and didn't win (if they had won, I guarantee you the school would have known). I would submit that you do your students and school a disservice by not promoting competition in the various types of tournaments out there. Without this pressure testing, your technique and application will suffer ultimately. Lack of competition leads to inbred techniques and habits.

Training to compete and win means training yourself not to do small joint manipulation, training yourself to never box the ears, or place a thumb under a jawbone, or any other method of pressure point striking. And to top it all off, in Tennessee, training yourself for competition is training yourself not to strike your opponenet. All of which leads to incomplete technqiues and poor fighting habits.

We don't forbid anyone from doing it, but we don't push our students that way either.