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  1. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 2:54am


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Google turns up neither the Japanese Sudo nor the Sanzu-Ryu, Sanzu Ryu etc except through Arel & co.

    Since both 'Shihan' Arel and 'Shihan' Reale are the only ones mentioned (by themselves?) as connected with this ryu, it seems my description still holds. They learned their stuff in yet another made up ryu with a mysterious Sensei who seems invisible to Google. (There is a modern day Sudo knocking about - clearly not old enough to be their teacher.)

    Claiming to be a Shihan is quite something, again implying JMA expertise and seniority - and very close to Grandmaster Soke in a few years time, I guess? Which ryu awarded these two 'licensed master instructors' their Shihan grade, I wonder?

    It's not the titles I object to, it is the veiled implication that these two can lay claim to some sort of TMA qualification. Saying that you 'studied' a MA is far from being any good at it or holding a grade in it.

    And both appear to be playing the 'man of mystery' card.

    Sorry, but if it walks like a fish and talks like a fish it probably smells like a fish too.

    As to the menkyo, why not scan it in and maybe someone here can translate it.

    Anyone know any different info on Sudo? Even if he is real, there is still no evidence he ever taught these two in the 1940's and, conveniently, I doubt that he is alive to confirm it.

    As they say on the TV, 'this myth is finally busted'.
    Last edited by kiaiki; 7/10/2007 3:56am at .
  2. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 7:38am


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kiaiki
    Google turns up neither the Japanese Sudo nor the Sanzu-Ryu, Sanzu Ryu etc except through Arel & co.
    And everybody knows that all the "real" information on the Japanese arts is availalbe through Google.

    Since both 'Shihan' Arel and 'Shihan' Reale are the only ones mentioned (by themselves?) as connected with this ryu, it seems my description still holds. They learned their stuff in yet another made up ryu with a mysterious Sensei who seems invisible to Google. (There is a modern day Sudo knocking about - clearly not old enough to be their teacher.)
    Could be entirely made up. Could have been made up around the time of the WWII. Could be much older. Since we claim that it decends from something older, then I'm standing by my school and my instructors. Feel free to stand wherever you'd like.

    Claiming to be a Shihan is quite something, again implying JMA expertise and seniority - and very close to Grandmaster Soke in a few years time, I guess? Which ryu awarded these two 'licensed master instructors' their Shihan grade, I wonder?
    I suppose I have seen nothing where Reale claims to be Shihan, but that's how he is referred to... It seems to sort of fit with what I know about him. It's kind of like if you have to claim it, you probably aren't.

    It's not the titles I object to, it is the veiled implication that these two can lay claim to some sort of TMA qualification. Saying that you 'studied' a MA is far from being any good at it or holding a grade in it.
    What I hear is a jealous and bitter man. Bashing an art he's never seen, people he's never met, and a 60+ year old Ryu that he can't find on Google.

    As to the menkyo, why not scan it in and maybe someone here can translate it.
    Something tells me you'd really like that. So respectfully, I decline. It's on full display in my office.

    As they say on the TV, 'this myth is finally busted'.
    It's been said time and time again that no matter what we post, it will never be enough. I've been as honest and forthright about everything I could find out... probably to a fault.

    So unless there is anything really specific I can address, then I'm probably going to bow out of here and get back to training.

    See you on the mats one day, peace out.

    --SB
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/10/2007 7:41am at .
  3. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 7:53am


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grashnak
    This is interesting. While I was doing a quick google search to see if I could find any record of anyone with a stated style of "Sanjuriu" in any MMA event, I stumbled upon this:



    This is posted on Bizearch.com http://www.bizearch.com/company/Sanjuriu_58826.htm.

    Sanjuriu has 2000 dojos?????

    How do they manage that with 51-100 employees?

    I'm confused. The odor of McDojo is strong with this one.

    (edited for formatting)
    Sorry, I didn't mean to let this slip, Grash. I don't know how many dojo's Sanjuriu has, but that wording indicates the number of dojos the store supplies with guis, weapons, etc. I imagine that's an annual number or a guestimate taken from the different addresses we ship to. It might also include individual orders for uniforms, etc. that go otu. I don't know.

    I do know the supply side of Sanjuriu is booming and from our location several dozen boxes go out every day. I admit its worded funny. But the sales do help us do things like sponsor the CAGE tourneys.
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/10/2007 7:57am at .
  4. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 8:18am

    supporting member
     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do Sanjuriu schools compete? In what kind of events specifically?

    At what point in a student's training does randori become uncooperative?
  5. Shamash is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 8:42am


     Style: ex-Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    Well, here we go.

    as someone else stated, the two men were close, but there was an ideological difference about the art and they parted ways. It doesn't sound like a happy split, but neither of the men have talked about it openly to my knowledge.

    I looked up Paul Arel on wikipedia and got the following webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokondo It is about his kokondo style. It has few interesting things. It says that jukido was based on Sanzyuryu. Apparently Paul Arel is terrified of competition and forbids his students from competing or training in any martial art except for Kokondo. Maybe this is the reason for the split since your instructor allows competition outside of class and he apparently does not. It also says the kokondo was based primarily on kyokushin karate which doesn't make a lot of sense given his dislike of competition. I don't think it mentioned his stance on sparring but I'm willing to bet he doesn't approve of it either.
  6. Grashnak is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 8:55am

    supporting member
     Style: Nothing current

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    Sorry, I didn't mean to let this slip, Grash. I don't know how many dojo's Sanjuriu has, but that wording indicates the number of dojos the store supplies with guis, weapons, etc. I imagine that's an annual number or a guestimate taken from the different addresses we ship to. It might also include individual orders for uniforms, etc. that go otu. I don't know.

    I do know the supply side of Sanjuriu is booming and from our location several dozen boxes go out every day. I admit its worded funny. But the sales do help us do things like sponsor the CAGE tourneys.
    Fair enough. That makes a lot of sense now that I re-read it. Ya gotta pay bills, no doubt about that. My old Muay Thai school insisted that you buy their special shorts and t-shirts and wear them for class. I was not impressed, but I understood what they were doing.

    :new_cussi Still didn't like it.
    Jesus loves you. I think you're an asshole.
  7. Grashnak is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 8:59am

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     Style: Nothing current

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey SB, just wanted to say that I respect that you've been a very good sport about all this. We can be a "politeness-challenged" bunch, but I'm glad we got through that and all in all had an interesting discussion.

    I did note one thing that struck me as odd:

    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    After talking for a while, my sensei asked me a question that was asked to him. He said, "David, what you really have to ask yourself is do you want to be the echo or the voice?"
    This sounds like the kind of mumbo jumbo spouted by travelling medicine men, faith healers, or bullshidoka. What exactly is that supposed to mean? What if I want to be the voice that knows what its talking about?

    Anyway, thanks for the info about your talk with your teacher.
    Jesus loves you. I think you're an asshole.
  8. El Neko is offline
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    "Yes Neko, please keep telling me more about your manly collection of Star Wars audiobooks"

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 10:35am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    And everybody knows that all the "real" information on the Japanese arts is availalbe through Google.
    You'd be surprise what we can find on google, it may not have all the answers, but is one of the best tools available for conducting investigations with little or no help from the people being investigated


    Could be entirely made up. Could have been made up around the time of the WWII. Could be much older. Since we claim that it decends from something older, then I'm standing by my school and my instructors. Feel free to stand wherever you'd like.
    and we will brother

    I suppose I have seen nothing where Reale claims to be Shihan, but that's how he is referred to... It seems to sort of fit with what I know about him. It's kind of like if you have to claim it, you probably aren't.
    not touching this one

    What I hear is a jealous and bitter man. Bashing an art he's never seen, people he's never met, and a 60+ year old Ryu that he can't find on Google.
    so, is it ancient, or 60+ years old? did I miss something?

    Something tells me you'd really like that. So respectfully, I decline. It's on full display in my office.
    Something tells me that you have no faith on your documents, especially if it's on full display in your office.

    It's been said time and time again that no matter what we post, it will never be enough. I've been as honest and forthright about everything I could find out... probably to a fault.
    as much as I like the fact that you're providing information, you're not backing up this information with cold hard facts, is your word, nothing else.

    So unless there is anything really specific I can address, then I'm probably going to bow out of here and get back to training.
    I said it many times, and I'll say it again, Bullshido is not for everybody, and you have to have certain degree of patience to deal with us, so probably you might be right, you need to go back to trainning, and we need to find somebody higher up on the chain with some answers; because to be honest, for a black belt, you don't seem to know much about the art that you "respect and love"

    See you on the mats one day, peace out.
    not gonna hold my breath for this one, but if you come by south florida, let me know.

    Keep cool
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost View Post
    Yeah, you're probably right.

    But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    There are two kinds of members on MAP:

    1. LARPers/Partial Artists
    2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
    The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMightyMcClaw
    Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
    Get with the times and punch a chick.
    Wingchundo's response after I called him a "*****"

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchundo View Post
    Hey, I resemble that remark!

    Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

    OK. Here goes.

    You are what you eat!
  9. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 11:03am


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    Do Sanjuriu schools compete? In what kind of events specifically?
    We don't, or at least haven't typically as far as a school driven push to enter tourneys. I am not involved with CAGE, so I can't speak to it. But we've had students enter.

    At what point in a student's training does randori become uncooperative?
    Depends on the student. When I teach children, I become uncooperative on poor techniques from students that have had enough practice to know better. Still, a seven year old is probably never going to successfully arm bar a grown man. If I give full resistance, he'll never feel his technique is worth its salt. What he needs to understand is that until he gets bigger or infinitely better, then he probably should use something else against a grown man. We can argue then that its a waste of time to even teach him an armbar at all, but I've seen kids grow in the past six years, and as they do, you can offer them more and more resistance.

    With an adult, I'm likely to give full resistance to a student that should be able to adjust on the fly. Again, that varies and depends on the student's aptitude. But it is a given that their technique will never get better if you refuse to constantly up the level of resistance and countering.

    I don't mean to dodge your question, but it really does depend on the student and their familiarity with whatever you are trying to teach. Last night, for example, I specifically asked for randori to go slow for form because I was trying to learn a step I was unfamiliar with. As I gained increasing levels of familiarity, I asked for more resistance and full energy. But I goofed (or actually did it right I guess) and popped the poster named Arestodimus (who is from our school) in the mouth with a forearm way too hard. My teammates and my sensei got frustrated with me because I broke a very "alive" randori to apologize.

    So long story short, it depends.
  10. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/10/2007 11:08am


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash
    I looked up Paul Arel on wikipedia and got the following webpage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kokondo It is about his kokondo style. It has few interesting things. It says that jukido was based on Sanzyuryu. Apparently Paul Arel is terrified of competition and forbids his students from competing or training in any martial art except for Kokondo. Maybe this is the reason for the split since your instructor allows competition outside of class and he apparently does not. It also says the kokondo was based primarily on kyokushin karate which doesn't make a lot of sense given his dislike of competition. I don't think it mentioned his stance on sparring but I'm willing to bet he doesn't approve of it either.
    I'd say his philosophy for avoidng competitions is similar to our own, although again, no one is forbidden from competing. I certainly would never say that Kokondo students are afraid to compete, but I don't know one personally, so that would be every bit as much of an assumption as you are making. I'm betting that Reale and Arel have the same philosophy with regard to competing however.

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