Sanjuriu ??????

[It is Fake]

So then I can't simulate a swing in the on-deck circle before I bat? I can't simulate my golf swing before I square up on the tee? Are you really making this argument? Physical motion is not a simulation of itself? What the heck does that even mean?

You still have to hit an actual ball in both cases for it to mean anything. No one keeps stats and records on how well you hit the air or, how beautiful your swing looks. You are rated on what you accomplish with said techniques.

Even in practice, they hit more balls then they do swinging in the air.

[El Neko]

No its just a question. Basically there are many here who claim to be an authority on who has right to teach it. Only those from clear pedigree lines have permission to teach this technique according to your world view. All I'm saying is that I disagree.

Not the case, but if your instructor instructor's learned from a animal cracker box, it would be nice for them to just go ahead and say that

Suppose two men were stationed for five years at the North Pole to monitor radio waves or something. They have nothing to do except read martial arts books and try stuff out on each other. They didn't teach themselves, the read, practiced, applied, adjusted, and reapplied every day for five straight years. They return and execute their techniques in regular dojos for a while and experienced martial artists are impressed with their techniques. Are they legitmate? I mean, if they can actually do the technique, does that legitmize them?

If after the five years in the north pole they decide to say that they learned the system from a secret tribe of inuit people, and can not provide proof of this... well, then maybe the bullshido people might have something to say about it. And without even knowing the system

The gentle way is nice, I'm not a mean guy by nature so I took better to the aiki side of our art. Although if you threw me on the skatepark concrete, I'm betting it would hurt a little more.

I might have to agree with this

PS: No breakfalls from the skateboard? :)

pssst. when you fall from a skateboard, you take it like a man... and then cry about it

Even if you really like his technique?

I guess I put an emphasis on honesty, but that's just me

The lineage questions? I said I'd ask.

Fair enough

Fair enough. That doesn't make my art BS though. It's sort of a guilty until proven innocent jury around here.

oh totally, especially when we have to go thru a big number of pages to get some incomplete info, that's just the way we roll around here, but you also need to understand that as much as I complaint about you not giving all the information, the people who came before you where much worst, so I personally got to the point where I didn't want to hear anything else about Sanjuriu

Again, by whose authority is my training deemed correct? It's that kind of superior attitude that puts me in a bad mood. For whatever reason, you think I owe you copies of my training videos so that your board of elders can approve or disapprove. I just don't care for the assumption that you're the martial arts god.

We might not be the martial arts gods or anything close to that, but there's many knowledgeable people here in this board, and we have had this same argument with some other bullshit artist before, so we might be a little jaded when facing the same issues and claims we have seen so many times before.

I said I would ask.

Fair enough, but you also said that we should look for it by ourselves, so it gets difficult to keep up with your moods

So then we're back to lineage being the litmus test of a true martial artist?

When there's a lack of any other way to prove how good a martial art is, then yeah, right now is one of the most important questions being asked

Yes. But I'd leave it to people more qualified than me to address.

no links or anything like that so we can speed the process?

I'm really not a bad person, but I'm also not an idiot and don't care much when I'm treated that way. Like I said, three pages ago, I get the feeling we can post randori videos, training requirements, and lineage lines, but it still won't matter to this group.

it depends, if you show some videos of prearrange katas, shitty randori and compliance by the ukes, then by all means, we're gonna keep asking questions about the system; if you prove beyond the shadow of the doubt that you guys do strong randori we will be forced to reconsider our ideas, some people might still have problems with the system due to harsh words traded with you, but that in my opinion is irrelevant

[SocraticBass]

Alright, four pages later I understand what you're trying to say here. Basically, if we're Japanese in form (and I think we are because of the menkyo licesense), then a translation of the licenses as far back as we go is needed to fully support our claim. Without a clear lineage, then claiming we are Japanese in origin is misleading. You're basically saying nothing about the art itself without having actually seen the techniques or the way we train. For all anyone knows, our art is legitmate. Or conversely, for all anybody knows, it is a bunch of crap.

People outside the range of our dojo do not have the luxury of training with us for any real stretch of time. Hence, we are the illegitimate red-headed step-child of MA to those outside of the viewing circle. As to the art itself, the case might be made that our art is legit with more detailed information, that likely includes a video of randori, etc.

As to the claims of our art's origins, they cannot be legitmized without further information. It seems to be the claims, not the so much the art, that has all our panties bunched. Am I getting warmer?

I have two thoughts. One is that if we should market ourself a certain way and make certian claims about the origin of Sanjuriu, it probably is a very good suggestion to document what we market. Failure to do so isn't fair to potential students.

Second, someone said above, that unless the name of someone way back isn't clearly linked to a claim about history, then it is illegitmate. My question is what if did come from Japan, but the name of the trainer is nothing remotely recognizable? Supposing trainer X taught someone in our lineage from a familiar line of MA, but trainer X called it something else? Or for example, translated it differently?

Also, I found it somewhat ironic that the cult classic films "Sanjuro" and "Yojimbo" portray a man named "Sanjuro" who is a samuria with no real people or group to call his own. I'm just guessing, but since the films are Japanese, there's probably some story behind the characterizations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanjuro

I'd be interested to see the movie, the clip I stumbled on makes it look worthwhile, and its gotten good reviews across the board:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKhyFKXzFrQ

So, if there is any connection at all between Sanjuro and Sanjuriu, it could be that some guy really thought the movie was cool and he created his own art and twisted the name around, feeling like the Sanjuro in the movie... no lineage, no people to call his own. But good at what he did. Apparently the film was based on a story by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamamoto_Shugoro which was written in the 1940's. Most everything says he had a preference for historically themed writing.

So if there's a connection, the name could have just been created then after someone read the novel.

Or, since I heard that Shep was in fact overseas, he could have trained under the name Sanjuriu and the art has been wandering around without a home just like Sanjuro in the popular movie for quite some time, and existed only in Japanese folk tales, which Yamamoto borrowed from when he wrote his novel.

Or its quite possible, maybe even likely, there is no connection at all. At any rate, it was fun to spend an afternoon researching the web. It's only peeked my interest to quiz my instructors a little bit more, maybe get my personal menkyo license translated by someone that reads Japanese, as well as research via the UT library the history of Sanjuro, or Sanjuriu.

Probably still won't silence the critics, but at least I'm enjoying it.

[SocraticBass]

You still have to hit an actual ball in both cases for it to mean anything. No one keeps stats and records on how well you hit the air or, how beautiful your swing looks. You are rated on what you accomplish with said techniques.

Even in practice, they hit more balls then they do swinging in the air.

But the purpose of warming up your swing is to prepare you for hitting the ball. I only claimed that the purpose of giving (or simulating) kuzushi was to train students for real thing. I hardly see a breakdown in the analogy.

[kiaiki]

If you swing, you swing - with or without a ball.

But you can't practice unbalancing someone who is not there.

If the person you unbalance co-operates, you are still unbalancing him. Therefore it is not a 'simulation'.

Shadow boxing may be simulation, but how can you 'shadow unbalance' someone.

Again, the term you have chosen for your MA unbalancing ( 'simulated' kuzushi) makes no more sense than the name of the organisation or the composite Anglo-Japanese techniques they can't even spell or even provide a single credible instructor as a teacher of them.

I'm well used to being on the 'other side' as Aikido gets some pretty heavy bashing. However, my Sensei was taught mainly by Gozo Shioda who was taught by the founder of Aikido. I've also done some Iaido and some Daito Ryu and again taken instruction from credible sources. IMHO any instructor who has a good lineage will be proud to tell you about it, not play the 'man of mystery' card.

On the other hand, I don't trust bragging. I once went round to my Sensei's house. Tucked away by the fireplace were a couple of certificates in Japanese. A fellow student (well up in Zen/Japanese culture etc.) recognised the signature etc. of Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. My Sensei told us they were his 1st and 2nd Dan certificates, but more importantly referred to them as 'just bits of paper' i.e. what he had learned was the important issue, not the paperwork. It's called 'anecdotal credibility' - if you tell a story and if someone calls you on it, you can back it up.

I don't care if your MA is wonderful, but you are here telling us so, and 'Shep' seems to think he can teach it, so now I'm calling you on it. Does the founder of your style have any anecdotal or concrete evidence that he ever learned any MA from anyone, epsecially Japanese (as they tend to keep good records)?

You keep saying you will ask - do it before you come back and reply, please.

If it looks like a turkey, walks like a turkey and sounds like a turkey, it will take a lot to convince me that it's a pit bull.

[Locu5]

I am officially confused. Do Sanjuriu schools compete? In what kind of events?

[SocraticBass]

But you can't practice unbalancing someone who is not there.

You're just full of MA wisdom aren't you? "Can't unblance someone that's not there..." I wonder, if a tree falls in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it make any noise?

If the person you unbalance co-operates, you are still unbalancing him. Therefore it is not a 'simulation'.

I assure you that if I let you unbalance me, then you are not unbalancing me. I am simulating for you what it would feel like if you were able to unbalance me. Also, if you feign and I simulate a response, then I'm giving you kuzushi. But you know what? I'm not going argue semantics with someone who is obviously just going twist whatever I say.

Shadow boxing may be simulation, but how can you 'shadow unbalance' someone.

Let me bring out my magic candle flame spoken in the scrolls of la-da-da, and I'll show you.

Again, the term you have chosen for your MA unbalancing ( 'simulated' kuzushi) makes no more sense than the name of the organisation or the composite Anglo-Japanese techniques they can't even spell or even provide a single credible instructor as a teacher of them.

Me smells a little ( ! ) foaming up to the surface. "Can't even spell?" I misspelled three words out of about a hundred at midnight with a frothy cold beer in me. Of course those three words equaled mispelling "half" the Japanese terms. I guess now we've moved from half to "can't even spell."

On the other hand, I don't trust bragging. I once went round to my Sensei's house. Tucked away by the fireplace were a couple of certificates in Japanese. A fellow student (well up in Zen/Japanese culture etc.) recognised the signature etc. of Morihei Ueshiba, the founder of Aikido. My Sensei told us they were his 1st and 2nd Dan certificates, but more importantly referred to them as 'just bits of paper' i.e. what he had learned was the important issue, not the paperwork. It's called 'anecdotal credibility' - if you tell a story and if someone calls you on it, you can back it up.

Awww, Ueshiba. Thought you didn't trust bragging?

[Locu5]

At what point does your randori become uncooperative?

[Shamash]

I am officially confused. Do Sanjuriu schools compete? In what kind of events?

I'm confused by this as well. At one point in the thread it seemed that Sanjuriu schools didn't spar at all in class but it was ok if students wanted to spar on their own. At another post SocraticBass said that most sparring was stupid done and done by stupid people. At yet another post he said be preferred "intense" randori. SocraticBass also said that Sanjuriu sponsered the C.A.G.E. fighter tournaments in tennessee and that some students competed.

Since I've not been to his school I'm not going to call him a liar so I'll take him at his word and assume that some students decide to compete on their own and that competition outside of class isn't frowned upon.

[Grashnak]

I'm confused by this as well. At one point in the thread it seemed that Sanjuriu schools didn't spar at all in class but it was ok if students wanted to spar on their own. At another post SocraticBass said that most sparring was stupid done and done by stupid people. At yet another post he said be preferred "intense" randori. SocraticBass also said that Sanjuriu sponsered the C.A.G.E. fighter tournaments in tennessee and that some students competed.

Since I've not been to his school I'm not going to call him a liar so I'll take him at his word and assume that some students decide to compete on their own and that competition outside of class isn't frowned upon.

Perhaps he could provide us with the names of the members of Sanjuriu who have competed as well as the names/dates of the competitions?