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  1. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 3:20pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrGalt
    Damn. I was eager to go tonight because I actually had an evening off during the week...didn't think about the fact that it's a holiday means plans might be inflicted upon me. Fiance has declared we shall watch noisy explosions at a friend's house for the evening so no trip to sanjuriu for me. No doubt you were all waiting on tenterhooks.

    I've been in touch with Socratic Bass, who cyrijl is quite right shouldn't give out his e-mail address on forums, (SB - you can edit your post to remove it), and he seems straightforward and informative and I think we'd all benefit from his level-headed posting if he chooses to post again. If I can't catch one of these Wednesday night classes maybe I can meet SB on a weekend sometime soon and get a chance to see some of Sanjuriu's techniques, although I'd really prefer to see or take a standard class.
    Mr. Galt,

    I read through 15 pages of the board, I really don't plan on swinging through here too often as it is a time drain and wasted space, including some of our "responses." I don't mind answering emails though, although our exchanges have gotten quite time consuming of late :)

    As to people bent on claiming their dominance via training pedigrees, I hardly find that interesting. I'll advocate to get a randori video up on our website or youtube, although I suspect even that won't appease the "tiny unit" envy here that would rather be posting about how much better they are, when in reality we should all just be training.
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/06/2007 3:34pm at .
  2. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 3:29pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grashnak
    In terms of Sanjuriu, I've gone back and looked at the Sanjuriu Colorado website (the only one I could get to load for some reason, my internet is acting up), and I have a couple of respectful questions (assuming any of you are related to that group - not sure where people are from).

    1. Does the school promote itself as teaching self defence? There is some mention of this in the section on Kata, but all in all the website doesn't seem to put much emphasis on teaching an effective fighting art.
    I don't take class in Colorado, but I assume they are much like us. Yes, we teach self-defense. Both through kata, through one and one technique, and through randori. I've broken two ribs in randori, so all that says is I should have trained harder. :)

    2. I looked at the class list and there doesn't seem to be any sparring on the menu. Are students allowed or encouraged to partake in hard sparring? You asked what people had against your techniques - I suspect the first thing would be to question whether or not they are effective in actual use, something that cannot be learned from Kata.
    No one is forbidden sparring. If the mats are clear and you want to put the gloves on, go for it. But that's not how we train. We can have an ideological discussion about that if you like via my email.

    3. There is no information on the instructors. I know you don't want to debate the history of Sanjuriu, but if your school is going to profess to teach numerous unrelated arts (Karate, Jujutsu, Bojutsu, Kenjutsu, Saijutsu etc), I think it would be important to provide information on both the identities and training of the instructors. Indeed, failure to provide this very basic information is one of the first things that tends to identify a school that is not teaching serious martial arts.
    My instructor can kick your instructor's ass. Isn't that how the saying goes? :)

    Seriously though, if I'm being taught well, I don't care if its Beaver Cleaver. I am being taught very, very well. Feel free to debunk the claim without evidence as so many here seem content to do.

    I put these thoughts forward in a polite, respectful manner, in the hopes that we may discuss more fully.
    Polite and respectful seems to be in short supply in this thread. Basically, we dared to build a website and to teach outside the accepted pedigrees and some folks around here wanted to make it their agenda of the week.
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/06/2007 3:34pm at .
  3. cyrijl is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 3:51pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, MT, Yoga

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, actually that is what not happened. Another stupid looking group of asshats appeared claiming this and that with no evidence or reasoning to back it up. Many of the issues that were brought up are/were important not only for debunking ridiculous claims (i.e. the scrool ****), but also for protecting others who might wander into a school ignorant of the quality, get stuck in a long term contract and gain a false sense of self-ability.

    You are but another traveler who has come here with the same tired old arguments.

    It IS VERY IMPORTANT to have information about the instructors on the webpage. I mean, give me a break, this should be the easiest part to fill in. Name, duration of training, rank and certification of rank. Legitimate instructors don't worry about putting the information out there. I have trained at several good school with instructors with no real certification or rank. They don't claim any. And that is out there too for people to read.

    What kind of randoori did you do to break two ribs? Were you kicked, did you fall wrong? There is a difference between sparring, a fight and an accident. I hope you can tell the difference.

    As to people bent on claiming their dominance via training pedigrees, I hardly find that interesting.
    How can we claim dominance when there is not even any infor on the webpage?
  4. MrGalt is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 6:37pm


     Style: Seidokaikan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Re: the Daito-ryu video

    That's one of the silliest things I've ever seen. I really hope that old man never gets into any kind of violent confrontation. In fact, it'd be best for him if he never left his training hall, and hired a doorman to keep him safe from people who might wander in.
    Last edited by MrGalt; 7/06/2007 6:49pm at .
  5. Grashnak is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 9:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: Nothing current

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass
    No one is forbidden sparring. If the mats are clear and you want to put the gloves on, go for it. But that's not how we train. We can have an ideological discussion about that if you like via my email.
    I'm sorry, I don't understand. You don't train people to spar, but you don't mind if they do it on their own? Wouldn't it be smarter to have them spar in class, where you can be sure they're not doing anything stupid?


    My instructor can kick your instructor's ass. Isn't that how the saying goes? :)

    Seriously though, if I'm being taught well, I don't care if its Beaver Cleaver. I am being taught very, very well. Feel free to debunk the claim without evidence as so many here seem content to do.
    Um, I'm not sure how you expect people who are learning martial arts to be able to tell if they're being well taught, especially if you don't actually spar hard to test your teaching.

    One of the most traditional, as well as useful, things that a martial arts instructor can offer their students is a clear, easily understood explanation of where the instructor acquired the knowledge they profess to be qualified to pass on.

    What you are doing is the equivalent to having some random guy fix the brakes on your car. Hey, as long as the brakes work, who cares if he's qualified. Except that, of course, once the brakes fail, you're unlikely going to live to complain.

    Its got nothing to do with who can kick whose ass. It has to do with having a believable basis from which to teach. Your school professes to teach things that are nonsensical as they are written on the website (see the comments about akijutsu etc that I note you didn't bother to address) and without some idea of your instructor's credentials, we are left to assume they are questionable.
    You can go on about the attitude of people on this site (many of whom are jerks :toothy9:) but the attitude of people who won't even question obvious inconsistencies within their own schools is even more disturbing. Step back from your hero worship and ask yourself some serious questions.

    Either that or please answer the following polite questions:
    1. what exactly does your school teach (actual names vs generic terms)
    2. where were your instructors were trained
    3. from whom does this knowledge descend
    None of those should be hard questions for any legitimate martial artist.
    Jesus loves you. I think you're an asshole.
  6. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 10:47pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grashnak
    I'm sorry, I don't understand. You don't train people to spar, but you don't mind if they do it on their own? Wouldn't it be smarter to have them spar in class, where you can be sure they're not doing anything stupid?
    Most sparring is stupid, done by stupid people. We use randori primarly in aikijutsu.

    Um, I'm not sure how you expect people who are learning martial arts to be able to tell if they're being well taught, especially if you don't actually spar hard to test your teaching.
    We use randori in aikijutsu.

    One of the most traditional, as well as useful, things that a martial arts instructor can offer their students is a clear, easily understood explanation of where the instructor acquired the knowledge they profess to be qualified to pass on.
    Wrong. One of the most useful things an instructor can do is teach you. Period. If you have doubts, allow him to wipe the mat with you if he thinks he that big and bad. If his techniques don't work, move to another dojo. You make it sound like rocket science. It isn't. Maybe if you're a dumb 14 year old who thinks he can kick all forms of ass... But we have trained shodakan black-belts, tae kwon do students, and more. They've moved into our system. I've had Issynru and Judo. I moved into the Sanjuriu system. So unless you're calling me an idiot, your points have been quite countered.

    What you are doing is the equivalent to having some random guy fix the brakes on your car. Hey, as long as the brakes work, who cares if he's qualified. Except that, of course, once the brakes fail, you're unlikely going to live to complain.
    Well, if you're an idiot, then you deserve it I suppose. But its nice to know the "professionals" here at bullshido are looking out for naive, little ole me. :laughing8

    Its got nothing to do with who can kick whose ass. It has to do with having a believable basis from which to teach.
    We didn't invent irimi nage and neither did you.

    Your school professes to teach things that are nonsensical as they are written on the website (see the comments about akijutsu etc that I note you didn't bother to address) and without some idea of your instructor's credentials, we are left to assume they are questionable.
    ASS-U-ME away. It's what the guys here are best at. Maybe our instructor is wanted in seven states for kicking your instructor's ass. Or maybe the last version of our website stated exactly who he was and where he got trained, just like Sanjuriu Alaska, Sanjuriu Las Vegas, and the other Sanjuriu sights. Maybe he was trained by aliens from another planet. What's your point, really? Do you have pedigree to perserve?

    You can go on about the attitude of people on this site (many of whom are jerks :toothy9:) but the attitude of people who won't even question obvious inconsistencies within their own schools is even more disturbing. Step back from your hero worship and ask yourself some serious questions.
    Step back from your high horse and realize that what's important to you might not be as important to someone else. Step back and realize that the world's full of people who are stronger, quicker, and better trained. Get off the forum and get better. That's what we do and the number one reason I can't see myself spending any "quality" time here.

    Either that or please answer the following polite questions:
    1. what exactly does your school teach (actual names vs generic terms)
    For the first belt in the aikijutsu line (and I'll skip basics like breakfalls, etc.) we teach:

    Kata Dori with ikkyo and ikkyo to kosoto gari
    Karate Dori with nikkyo, ikkyo, and sankyo kosoto gari
    Morote Dori with shuto oroshi
    Rote Dori with osoto gari (escape) and sante waza
    Ushiro Karate Dori with hiju kini osa
    Mae Dori Kubi with pressure point to ikkyo kosoto gari and osoto gari
    Ryo Eri Dori with desahi harai to osoto gari
    Ushiro Dori with hiza kensetsu
    Kata Dori Tsuki with desashi harai
    Ushiro Ryote Dori with shoulder hold and ikkyo kosoto gari
    Ushiro Ryo Kubi Shuimi with osoto gari
    Hakkad Jime with yoko gari
    Mane Dori with nikkyo
    Yoko Dori with pressure point to shoulder hold
    Jeodan Shamoan Auke with double pat osoto gari
    Shomen Zuki with sante waza
    Naname Kubi with sante waza

    Of course this assumes that we've taught the basics of the six causes, plus sante waza. We also teach intro to jos, and intro to stances, strikes, and punches at the first aikijutsu belt. Although, you and I both know that it's not going to matter to you what we teach. You've made up your mind. I sleep very well at night, so again if you're worried about me let me give you good relaxation time by telling you I'm ok.

    where were your instructors were trained
    My personal instructor was trained in Colorado by Shepherd Reale. I was trained from him. Again, we both already know that this bit of trivia won't matter to you.

    from whom does this knowledge descend
    Last time I checked, all the above come from a magical place in a far away land that you and I know as Japan. But since they were able to come up with it after centuries of warfare, then who's to say someone else hasn't? As soon as you can tell me who owns Ikkyo, then we can talk. Until then, this question is a simple ruse, pulled for reasons that only you know.


    None of those should be hard questions for any legitimate martial artist.
    Tada!
  7. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/06/2007 10:52pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by cyrijl
    What kind of randoori did you do to break two ribs? Were you kicked, did you fall wrong? There is a difference between sparring, a fight and an accident. I hope you can tell the difference.
    My ribs were broken by a punch. I was weildign the knife against my opponent. He made what looked like to me to be a bad move. I countered, he struck my ribs. I don't think he expected me to be that close in his defense. I didn't expect him to be that good in mine. We both learned something...
  8. Shamash is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2007 9:03am


     Style: ex-Tae Kwon Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SocraticBass

    Most sparring is stupid, done by stupid people. We use randori primarly in aikijutsu.

    I still think you are missing the point so I'll try to explain things even though I'm sure other members on this forum have and can do a much better job than I. Unless you and your partner are being dicks and trying to seriously injure each other, sparring is usually a very useful tool in showing what works and what don't.

    It's not uncommon for martial artists in non sparring arts to have major missunderstandings on what can and cannot be done against someone who is actively resisting your attacks and trying his best to hit you back. If you ever sparred someone under full or medium contact rules, you might find that many of the things your instructor taught you are unrealistic. Exactly how do you know your techniques work? Have you ever tried them in a real fight? Have you ever really been hit hard? Sparring helps answer these questions.

    Since you mentioned randori, I assume that means grappling of some sort. There is a grappling tournament this month in knoxville on the 28th. It is called the C.A.G.E. fighter classic. I will be going to watch my brother compete. I think it would be beneficial for you to enter the tournament to see if your skills hold up when someone is actively resisting you. The name sounds intimidating, but I assure you there aren't any actual cages. Its purely grappling with no strikes allowed. This would be a great time to practice your skills in a safe environment. If you can submit a resisting opponent then you will know your skills can hold up under pressure.
    Last edited by Shamash; 7/07/2007 9:06am at . Reason: messed up quote
  9. kiaiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2007 11:51am


     Style: Aikido Ceteris Paribus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    SocraticBass - IMHO as a lowly person who has never seen your art is that you betray its superficiality and incoherence with each post.

    The curriculum you describe for your first belt in Aikijutsu is a random assortment of stuff, some of which is way too advanced IMHO for a first grading, as it would take a beginner a huge amount of time to master them. It's a mish-mash of bits of Judo and Aikido - what Ryu or Ryus of Aikijutsu, Aikijujutsu or Aikinojutsu have been mastered by your instructors in order to offer this curriculum?

    Obviously not a Ryu which teaches atemi,as you mention not one strike even as an attack; neither do you mention kansestsu waza or kuzishi.

    Please enlighten me as to what 'sante waza' is?

    IMHO none of this will work without good kuzushi - how is this incorporated?

    And what is Rote? or 'desahi' or 'Zuki' - certainly not any standard translation I've ever seen of - - Japanese?

    Let me guess: Ryote, de ashi, tsuki?

    If Japan is used in the dojo, why are half the terms in English, like 'pressure point to shoulder hold' - the Spock Ryu?
    Last edited by kiaiki; 7/07/2007 12:24pm at .
  10. SocraticBass is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/07/2007 4:05pm


     Style: Sanjuriu, Aikijutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shamash
    Since you mentioned randori, I assume that means grappling of some sort. There is a grappling tournament this month in knoxville on the 28th. It is called the C.A.G.E. fighter classic. I will be going to watch my brother compete. I think it would be beneficial for you to enter the tournament to see if your skills hold up when someone is actively resisting you. The name sounds intimidating, but I assure you there aren't any actual cages. Its purely grappling with no strikes allowed. This would be a great time to practice your skills in a safe environment. If you can submit a resisting opponent then you will know your skills can hold up under pressure.
    That's probably sponsored by Sanjuriu. The last C.A.G.E. at Powell was ours. And no thanks. I've no interest in walking in with half my art. We get nice enough resistance from each other in the dojo during randori.


    ETA - actually, I just looked it up. If its the one at Powell on July 28 with ranked points, I'm positive we're the ones putting it on. We're the guys setting up mats, arranging the event, manning concessions, and investing to make it happen. I think a few of our guys are in it. If not this one, maybe the last one.
    Last edited by SocraticBass; 7/07/2007 4:36pm at .

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