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  1. Cassius is online now
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    Moderator

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 2:56pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Camus
    I'm not sure I agree with this, I've learned alot rolling with the purples and above at my gym, guys larger or smaller. I roll with my instructor (3rd degree bb) almost every week and he's got an awesome game for guys at my level where he doesn't mind punishing you with the pressure, but he also gives you alotta clues about what you should be doing (nonverbal) and goes slow enough for you to figure things out and makes it impossible to use muscle or speed (ie if you keep trying to jump guard or speedy gonzales guardpass, he'll just flip you on your back and sit there until you nail a good and proper guard pass, etc). Also, with noobs and guys below my level, I don't go anywhere near 100% (esp as a large uncoordinated guy, going hard generally leads to injury for all parties involved)

    That said, I would agree insofar as with guys around your level things are a whole different ball game and light rolling pretty hard to come by.
    I'm not saying you have to roll 100% every time, but "flowing" tends to be very compliant, and I don't like that. Maybe we're working with different definitions and preconceptions? Perhaps its like anything else: it works well if you do it properly.

    Maybe I should amend my statement to this: At this point and time in my training, I don't particularly find "flowing" drills to be productive. If I'm going to work combinations and "lockflows," I prefer to work them on people that are resisting me . . . so basically, white belts.

    Look for a thread on this topic--as well as a brand new spin on flowing--in DHS sometime soon.
    Last edited by Cassius; 5/17/2006 3:00pm at .
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  2. fanatical is offline
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    Hi, guys

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    Oslo, Norway
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 3:04pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Escalation.

    Tell me Emevas. When he started going harder, why didn't you just let him tap you. Why didn't you give no resistance, turn into a complete ragdoll and see what he did when you didn't even move and just tapped out when he got any sub?

    Could it be YOUR ego?
    More human than human is our motto.
  3. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Jan 2006
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    Orlando, Florida
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 3:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    Always choose your training partner carefully. Realizing that sometimes your partner is chosen for you, you will occasionally have to deal. Regardless, if your partner is bothering you, say something. Ego be damned. One example, I don't know how many guys have been re-injured because they didn't tell their partner to watch out for their injury. I've certainly been guilty of this. What sucks more than getting injured? Getting re-injured and having to start the recuperation process all over again.
    Exactly, if your partner is not like-minded than both of your training will suffer and you will get injured.....and re-injured.

    Quote Originally Posted by Camus
    I'm not sure I agree with this, I've learned alot rolling with the purples and above at my gym, guys larger or smaller. I roll with my instructor (3rd degree bb) almost every week and he's got an awesome game for guys at my level where he doesn't mind punishing you with the pressure, but he also gives you alotta clues about what you should be doing (nonverbal) and goes slow enough for you to figure things out and makes it impossible to use muscle or speed (ie if you keep trying to jump guard or speedy gonzales guardpass, he'll just flip you on your back and sit there until you nail a good and proper guard pass, etc). Also, with noobs and guys below my level, I don't go anywhere near 100% (esp as a large uncoordinated guy, going hard generally leads to injury for all parties involved)
    I agree here with the "flow/slow/controlled" rolling. I think it is very hard for anyone to develop a "game" of their own without being allow to see what submissions, positions, sweep, reversals, etc. are available from the different position you find yourself in while rolling. A noob is not going to see how "A" can connect to "B", "C" or "D" or visa versa without slowing down the pace a little bit to allow the person the opportunity to see the progressions.

    Now this does not mean you should allow a sloppy guard pass to go, or allow a shitty set-up for a juji gatame to go undefended just because you are rolling at less than 100%, this is where the bad habits can be reinforced.

    Many times when rolling with some with less training I'll stop in the middle and ask them what they think they have or where do they want to go and why do they think that is the best option. I do the same when I roll with those above me, meaning, I ask them where they think my game should improve or if I am having difficulty ask them what they would do, then I drill, drill, drill, and drill.

    I'm willing to bet everyone who regularly rolls has a story of some newb-fucktard spazzing at class. I've got plenty and everyone else’s suggestions so far on how to deal, or not deal, with the grappltards is pretty standard fair and I agree. For the most part the grappltard falls into one of two eventualities, 1) they get mercilessly beat by upper ranks for not cooperating and they never come back due to hurt body and hurt ego, or 2) they learn and eventually decide they have nothing to prove and want to learn the art.
  4. RaiNnyX4 is offline

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    Sapporo
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 3:13pm


     Style: Aikido/Judo/BJJ/Naginata

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Locu5
    What are aikido warmups like?
    I wasn't really speaking about the warmups but about training in general. You get a lot of guys that think they know what they're doing right away and can't concede to the fact that they're beginners and clearly have no clue. Like, they refuse to practice a technique slowly at first in order to get down the foot-work or body positioning or they'll try their hardest to apply locks without good technique and use as much strength as possible. You try to explain to these guys that they're not doing it correctly and that they should slow down and take it step by step but they don't listen.

    This happens ALL THE TIME at my college club. Usually, I'll try explaining it to them but when I have to keep telling them to slow down I have them do it to me. And I end up having to jab them in the stomach or ribs to show them that their body isn't in the right spot or just stand there as they continually try to lock my wrists with all the strength they have but it doesn't work because my wrists are very well conditioned and they aren't even close to doing the technique correctly. Then I'll show them the way that it's supposed to be done using very little strength and all technique and they always drop very quickly.

    But most of the guys that act like this rarely come to more than one class.
  5. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Minot AFB, ND
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 3:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fanatical
    Escalation.

    Tell me Emevas. When he started going harder, why didn't you just let him tap you. Why didn't you give no resistance, turn into a complete ragdoll and see what he did when you didn't even move and just tapped out when he got any sub?

    Could it be YOUR ego?

    Ummm...where at all did you ever read me saying I didn't do exactly this? That's the whole reason I'm angry dude, hence this rant.
    Last edited by Emevas; 5/17/2006 3:58pm at .
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  6. Ryno is offline

    Senior Member

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    Seattle (Ballard), WA
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 4:12pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I go easy, or slow, or whatever you want to call it, I consciously try to focus on technique, and expect my partner to do the same. Explosive speed/power moves should be kept to a minimum. Speed and strength can cover up some sloppy technique when you are learning, and by minimizing these aspects of your game, you can focus on how clean you can execute. This is what low-intensity rolling is all about.

    I'm 220 pounds, and am fairly athletic. If my partner is 160, it's pretty obvious that I've got the strength advantage. What am I going to accomplish by just being a dick and speeding up/muscling things? Not a damn thing. I'll get away with some sloppy work just due to the size difference if I'm being Mr. Aggro while we roll.

    Will my technique improve because of this? No. Will my partner's technique improve? Probably not. He'll just have to speed up too. Now where will we be at? We'd be going all-out, and would have to make athleticism be more of a factor than technique. Will this help us with our techniques, especially if we are just trying to learn the mechanics, and figure out where they fit into our game? Nope.

    If you try to keep it slow, and no one speeds up, you can really see flaws in your game, and have the time to work on them. It is a controlled pace that is conducive to analysis and experimentation, with little risk of injury.

    Then, once you are warm and have worked on the stuff that you needed to figure out, by all means try the **** under pressure.
    Last edited by Ryno; 5/17/2006 4:14pm at .
  7. Darkpaladin is offline
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    The r34l Drunken Jiu Jitsu

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    Boston, MA
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 4:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: _razilian _iu _itsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's BJJ not aikido. I personally like it when my opponent goes apeshit on me, because it forces me to either be better or lose. It teaches you to never underestimate anyone. It's worth the beating.
    :google:

    Number of bottles of beer downed by me and my girlfriend within a half hour while playing the Channel 7 "how many times will they say 'snow' game" during the "Blizzard of '06": 3.5 each.
  8. Emevas is offline
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    Dysfunctionally Strong

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    Minot AFB, ND
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 4:43pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Like I said, I'm fine when it's the designated time and place for it, but when the coach specifically says "Only 20%" and it's just a warm-up, it's unnecessary macho bullshit.
    "Emevas,
    You're a scrapper, I like that."-Ronin69
  9. Meager is offline
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    Maryland
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 4:58pm


     Style: BJJ & MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Camus
    I'm not sure I agree with this, I've learned alot rolling with the purples and above at my gym, guys larger or smaller. I roll with my instructor (3rd degree bb) almost every week and he's got an awesome game for guys at my level where he doesn't mind punishing you with the pressure, but he also gives you alotta clues about what you should be doing (nonverbal) and goes slow enough for you to figure things out and makes it impossible to use muscle or speed (ie if you keep trying to jump guard or speedy gonzales guardpass, he'll just flip you on your back and sit there until you nail a good and proper guard pass, etc). Also, with noobs and guys below my level, I don't go anywhere near 100% (esp as a large uncoordinated guy, going hard generally leads to injury for all parties involved)
    Going light with much smaller people or people you totally outclass is not the same as light rolling as a warm up.
  10. Cassius is online now
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    6,988

    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 8:26pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Meager
    Going light with much smaller people or people you totally outclass is not the same as light rolling as a warm up.
    There we go, that's what I was looking for.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
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