Posted On:5/17/2006 4:47am
Style: BJJ & MT
Light grappling fucking sucks. It's hard to judge just how light you're supposed to go, and one guy usually goes harder than the other so the other guy has to step up his intensity to compensate and pretty soon you're both going all out anyway. There are better ways to warm up.
Edit: It's weird, but I don't have a problem with light or medium sparring in striking. It just doesn't seem to work out in grappling.
Posted On:5/17/2006 5:17am
Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)
So Emevas is saying that he likes to beat up new people during warmup? (Sheesh, people, can you be more obtuse?)
Posted On:5/17/2006 5:43am
Style: Chinese Boxing
Considering I'm the one who normally calls people a ***** when need be (Emevas is a isn't that tough), I think a little rant and vent is warranted every once in awhile. At my gym you ease off or I'll sic myself or a senior person on you to show you the errors of your way.
This is what happened last night. I was trying to show one of my smaller students that you don't match muscle for muscle. My senior but smaller student is only 150lbs with 1 1/2 of experiance going against a 225lb physical fitness trainer with only 2 months experiance if that. The 225 person was muscling everything and the 150 person was reacting directly to it instead of using his size to his advantage.
I didn't critcize the newbie because the 150lb'er should've known better, and he did, but I went against the 225 lbs and didn't use any muscle against him just to prove the point. Unfortunately he tried to force himself out of every hold I threw on him, which was my goal to wear him down, but as soon as I threw the inverted key lock (I think I said kimura before), he tried to force the movement the wrong way and pop. Valuable lesson I hope he's okay.
Newbies should never try to prove this to other newbies, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. If this is an experianced person then it sounds like an Alpha Dog thing and the experianced person has proven nothing until hard rolling comes.
In the end sit out during warm up if the asshole keeps going too hard. You could also do a latch and attack. A person who is going to hard, latch on to a limb and hold on (pin him) until he eases off.
Posted On:5/17/2006 8:34am
Originally Posted by Emevas
Yeah, that's exactly the nature of the beast I'm trying to get at. Just annoying mentality that I never really saw in striking.
I've seen it a bit. How it compares with grappling, I've no idea. What I see routinely is:
1. I'm sparring someone at light contact while trying to maintain distance. They are trying to get in close to me. They aren't very good at it doing so, so they take repeated punches to the head while trying. They don't seem to respect that what they are doing isn't working as evidenced by them getting knocked about. I think that's because we're doing light contact only so I ratchet it up a bit to send a message of "Hey, try something different. You are getting smacked around." I guess in short I see people who don't respect when they take a hit.
2. I'm doing flowing sparring (low intensity as was stated earlier in the thread) and all of a sudden my partner goes nuts on me. One moment we're both going nice and slow to work on footwork, positioning, et cetera and the next he's going balls to the wall.
Posted On:5/17/2006 9:19am
Hey Emevas, what rank was this guy?
I suppose you'll find assholes like that everywhere you go. There was this big, stocky brown belt at my old karate studio that would relentlessly beat on the teenage and lower ranked students during any contact drill...and when you'd confront him on it, he'd give cop an attitude and talk about "Respecting your senior ranks!"
Chalk it up to either insecurity ("I can't let this guy tap me! My penis might shrink!") or inexperience ("Holy crap! What if he doesn't stop when I tap! My arm might explode!"). Try not to take it personally...and if it gets out of hand, speak with the instructor.
On a side note, try this. The next time your instructor says, "Flow 20% to warm-up", use NO submissions. Defend against your partners, then simply work on changing positions and gaining dominance. Resist the urge to go for a submission, and force yourself to keep moving from one position to the next.
Injuries are far more likely to occur if this jackass is popping a blood vessel trying to muscle out of an armbar than if he's simply bridging like a mule trying to break your mount. It can also sends a very subtle message along the lines of, "If I'm able to gain dominant position, imagine how easily I could submit you."
Just so you guys are aware, Emevas acts very different in person compared to some of his posts. Even though he's a solid weight lifter, he's very polite and respectful. You can dispel any notions of him acting like a jackass and getting "Put in his place", as that scenario just isn't likely.
I'll see you at the June throwdown Emevas. I'll be brining at least three people with me if all goes well, so we should have a good workout.
Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee
Posted On:5/17/2006 9:50am
Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
Ego tends to go out the door much faster when someone's punching you in the face.
The problem with grappling seems to be that once you get over the hump and actually start submitting people regularly, it becomes hard to give the thrill of winning up, even to the greater good. That particular "beast" tends to answer to two names: Arrogance and Insecurity.
To use BJJ as an example, it seems like that mentality should really be riding off into the sunset by the time you hit mid level blue. Purple belts have NO excuse for this kind of behavior, as far as I'm concerned.
I resemble that remark!
I'm going to try to remember this too:
"They have to learn that nine times out of ten, class is not a time for competition. Sure, you might be trying to win during a roll, but you should have specific techniques in mind to work on. You should be working on what you need to work on."
Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
Posted On:5/17/2006 10:16am
Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)
I'll bet the amount of assholish activity in a school is in direct proportion to the amount of time noobs and junior members spend rolling with the skilled folks. Because our pro fighters roll and spar with everyone short of the absolute noobs for the most part, and I've only seen bullshit like that twice in 4 years.
Posted On:5/17/2006 10:51am
Style: TKD; BJJ
I totally agree with you, Emevas, I really hate that sort of behavior. It's especially common among wrestlers but not limited to them either. Sparring isn't a competition.
Something else that's similar is when (mostly noobish) people go for nothing but submissions, even from bad positions. I've armarred the **** out of people collar choking my from guard, but then there are the dumbasses that once they get to half guard they immediately go for a keylock or try to put a forearm on my throat. Stop trying to win and try to learn some actual skills you dumbasses.
Posted On:5/17/2006 11:03am
Style: JJ of the B variety
Originally Posted by Emevas
Here's my rant. I am so sick of everytime I walk into a grappling class (BJJ is way guilty of this, but all grappling seems equal), when the instructor says "go 30% intensity here guys", I get Rickson going apeshit trying to tear my head off or wrench kimuras on me. It's a fucking warmup, not a match. Stupid fucking ego bullcrap that isn't conducive to training.
I swear, the next time someone does this ****, I'm gonna straight knee them in the face, and when they go "Dude, WTF?" I'll go "Oh, sorry, you were going so intense I thought we were having a MMA match" =P
It's been my own experience with BJJ that the guys who are guilty of this are usually everyone else's whipping boys and only show up for classes like once or twice each week. After about two months, you'll be the one tapping them out 3 or 4 times in 2 minutes.
Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO
We seem to get a few that stumble into the club that I train at now and then. The other night someone from another system came in to roll, and it was pretty much as Emevas said. The instructor said to go easy, get loose, etc., and this guy was just going aggressive as all hell. Instructor tells him to chill, but it just won't get through his skull. He's scaring the hell out of the other noobs, so the instructor calls for a break.
We do a few technique drills, and the guy is still going so hard that the drills look like a fucking fight. So the instructor opens it up to free sparring, and matches him up against me, telling me to make the point. So I'm going with the guy, and he's just aggressive as hell. No problem with that. I get position on him, **** around with him at side control/kesa, then switch to mount and proceed to collar choke the **** out of him. He slightly defends for a bit, until I get my grips good and deep then I'm choking the hell out of him.
But the fucker refuses to tap. He's got this fucking berzerker rage look in his eyes like he will not ever tap. Then his eyes begin to bug out, and gets a panicked look. But he will not tap. Then his face turns bright red. But he will not tap. I cinch it down a little more and the fucker finally taps.
Now he's coughing and ****, and I'm thinking "Why the **** didn't you just tap?" But, I play it cool, and reach out to shake hands, and the dude just lays down, and starts pounding the floor, saying "****!" Like it's the end of the world for him to tap to a training partner.
At this point, the instructor tells him to chill, and matches him up against one of the more experienced guys. You can guess how this went...
After newaza, the instructor went on to explain club etiquette, the importance of tapping, how training is not competition, etc.
There is nothing wrong with tapping during training. Besides that, listen to your instructor. If he says to chill, you'd better fucking chill. People often escalate the intensity in training when it is not called for. It is both your responsibility as a training partner, and the instructor's responsibility to see that things don't get out of hand.
It's supposed to be mutual training for mutual benefit, and not "Let's see how many training partners I can **** up today." People need to get past this little ego trip, because if they don't, the entire club will suffer for it.
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