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  1. #1

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Is it known who Maeda lost to in catch wrestling?

    According to BJJ.org, Mitsuyo Maeda (aka Count Koma) was undefeated in Judo and his only loses came in Catch Wrestling. Others sources such as GracieMag.com, do not mention his loses in catch. My question is, if he did suffer loses in catch, is their any REAL record of this and who did he lose to?

  2. #2
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    Didn't he lose to a cadet at West Point?

  3. #3

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Coincidentally I was reading a review of Maeda's biography on bjj.org yesterday.

    ISBN is 4-09-379213-5 published by Shogakukan

    There are some comments about his losses on bjj.org. Here you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by mark gorsuch
    The demonstration at West Point did not go over well. Tomita and Maeda started off with kata, but the Americans did not understand what they were seeing. Maeda was challenged by a student wrestling champion and a match ensued. A misunderstanding occurred when the student pinned Maeda (wrestling style pin) and thought he had won. Maeda, not familiar with wrestling, continued to fight until he got his opponent in a joint lock and made him tap out. The students then wanted to see Tomita fight. Since he was the instructor, they figured he must be the better of the two. The truth, however, was that Tomita was in his 40's and past his prime. He had brought Maeda along to help with demonstrations, but had not intended to engage in challenge matches. He had no choice, and hesitated when his much larger american opponent rushed and tackled him. Tomita was caught under the weight of the bigger man and forced to give up
    Quote Originally Posted by mark gorsuch
    Maeda is said to have fought over 2,000 matches in his career, many unrecorded. He traveled throughout the Americas and Europe, taking on all comers. He was only about 165 cm tall so he his opponents were usually far larger than he was. Nonetheless, he became a legend in the fighting world and his name is still well known amongst Japanese settlements in the Americas. Maeda was not undefeated. He lost two matches in the catch-as-catch-can world championships held in London. In this tournament, Maeda entered both the middleweight and heaveyweight divisions, advancing to the semi-finals and finals respectively. In matches where judo gis were worn, however, Maeda was undefeated.
    If there are records of the world catch-as-catch-can championship held in london the year Maeda, their names should be somewhere. Apparently his biographer was pretty through in his research, travelling the world and trying to get every detail. Maybe he found their names and put them in the biography.
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  4. #4
    Darkpaladin's Avatar
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    Maeda losing? This entire thread is blasphemous! Woe be unto thee infidels at the end when Helio shall sit in judgement of you non-believers.

    edit: as this is a somewhat serious forum, I've heard of the misunderstanding between Maeda and the wrestler. I think Maeda had him in the guard, but does that count as a pinned position in greco-roman?
    :google:

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  5. #5

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the events that lead to him breaking away from the Kodokan and calling his art Jiu-Jitsu instead of Judo? I know he took classical Jiu-Jitsu as a teen before he took Judo.
    Also is his venture into Catch Wrestling the reason the top wristlock (as called by CACC people) is called the Americana? Did he get tapped by it?

  6. #6

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    Wouldn't of thought so, but I could be wrong. As I far as I have been able to find out, his losses to catch wrestlers were at the world championship in London, England.
    He who attains his ideal by that very fact transcends it- Nietzsche

    I like my Te like I like my tea- from Fujian province and without any bullshit in it. Oh, and green. And scented with jasmine blossoms...

    Quote Originally Posted by A Better American Than You
    In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot.

  7. #7

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Maeda violated Judo rules at the time by competing against the Catch wrestlers. Judoka were not to spar or challenge other styles, I'll try to find the source where I read that. So his involvement in the catch-as-catch-can championship would have been a violation of Judo rules.
    As far as the "americana" goes, I was read in another forum that Maeda spent some time in the U.S. (New York and a few other places) and often wrestled catch guys in unsanctioned matches. So I figured maybe thats where he got the name. I also wonder if catch had any influence on what Maeda eventually taught the Gracies. I'm no expert, so knowledgable people feel free to correct me. Or flame.

  8. #8
    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer. Join us... or die

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    I think the no challenge rule is probably a load of bollocks considering the reputation Judo built for itself challenging and (mostly) defeating other styles of JuJutsu. Kano was very progressive, that's the point.

  9. #9
    Yrkoon9's Avatar
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    2000 matches with 2 losses?

    I'm okay with that.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuickJab
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't this one of the events that lead to him breaking away from the Kodokan and calling his art Jiu-Jitsu instead of Judo?
    Intially I was told an believed that Maeda had violated the rules of the Kodokan and thus started calling his art JJ instead of Judo. However after reading his bio and speaking to other old timers who were students of Maedas contemporaries this doesn't seem to be the case. The terms Judo and Jiu Jitsu (the acceptable romanization at the time) were interchangeable. (Judo after all is just another form of Jujutsu) And that is more than likely the reason the Gracies use the term JiuJitsu instead of Judo.

    Jake Shannon is really big on the history of Catch so he might know who Maeda lost to. I will shoot him an email and see.
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