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  1. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 3:09am

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm thinking that, due to my discussion with CNAgy (which was a discussion on semantics, mostly) my position on this issue may not be clear, so, to sum it up:

    I'm pro drug legalization, thus, that should include steroids. I mean, it would be dishonest for me to approve people taking cocaine and not steroids.

    My main issue with this is that msot people do not research enough what they're taking and what may be the side effects. I know people who did cycles but not post-cycle therapy.

    EDIT: AS a side note, possesion in Spain (I mean, possesion of a small quantity of drugs for self consumptiom) is and administrative fault, that means, you can be fined, but not jailed.

    Now, dealing is another issue.
    Last edited by Lights Out; 5/17/2006 3:12am at .
  2. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 10:52am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meager
    Eddie was also addicted to pain killers, alcohol and probably various other things. He was released from the WWE because of his drug abuse at one point. I don't think you can blame his death soley on steroids.
    Drugs are a problem in pro wrestling, it's true, but when 65 wrestlers die in a span of 8 years and virtually all had been using, it makes you wonder. Granted I have less evidence of those than the aforementioned bodybuilders and Anthony Clark though.
  3. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 10:53am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quikfeet509
    But to be objective, the amount of drugs that a typical IFBB pro takes would dwarf what anybody on this board would ever dream of using.
    So if a fatal dose of cyanide is 1000mg (theoretically), as long as people are just taking 100mg they'll be okay without any ill effects? What about in the long run?
  4. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 11:07am


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu
    So if a fatal dose of cyanide is 1000mg (theoretically), as long as people are just taking 100mg they'll be okay without any ill effects? What about in the long run?
    According to The Princess Bride, the long run result is building up an immunity. That wasn't cyanide, but whatever. This argument can be used for any medication, you realize. Generally, the fatal dose of something is what we call an overdose. I think chemistry uses the term LD50. You can OD on pretty much anything, does that mean that the effects of a much smaller dose are not beneficial?
  5. VikingPower is offline
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    Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 11:32am

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy
    According to The Princess Bride, the long run result is building up an immunity. That wasn't cyanide, but whatever. This argument can be used for any medication, you realize. Generally, the fatal dose of something is what we call an overdose. I think chemistry uses the term LD50. You can OD on pretty much anything, does that mean that the effects of a much smaller dose are not beneficial?
    The Princess Bride? WTF?

    If something is still unhealthy in the long run, however, it's going to have negative side effects. If you're swallowing a cup of pure bleach a day every day for several years, you're going to **** yourself up, plain and simple.
  6. theraydiator is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 12:08pm

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    Iocane - the masked man was immune to Iocane.

    BUT - i don't know if the immunity plan works on anything besides iocane, fiction.
    -Jordan
  7. Quikfeet509 is offline

    Acupuncturist / Anesthesia Student

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 12:22pm


     Style: Mostly weights now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu
    So if a fatal dose of cyanide is 1000mg (theoretically), as long as people are just taking 100mg they'll be okay without any ill effects? What about in the long run?


    Wow, that is a really poor analogy. Go bench press a couple of kegs!





    Pretty much any drug is deadly if you take too much. Hell even water is deadly if you drink too much.



    I usually enjoy bashing the whole pharmaceutical drug / FDA scene, but it has yielded a process which theoretically reduces the chance of a person dying from taking a prescription drug. Let's remember that most anabolic steriods are medications and are relatively safe if taken in the context for which they were approved. Now the further you get away from that range the more likely you are to develop a negative outcome.

    A couple cycles of steriods a year might be safe while taking a stack that would make a bull add 50 lbs of lean muscle probably isn't.





    What the hell are we talking about again?
  8. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 1:11pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu
    If something is still unhealthy in the long run, however, it's going to have negative side effects. If you're swallowing a cup of pure bleach a day every day for several years, you're going to **** yourself up, plain and simple.
    You are completely out of your mind if you think comparing bleach and cyanide to steroids is a meaningful comparison. Now, I'm not a chemist, but there is a little something called the threshold dosage. It's the amount of something that is necessary to observe an effect, whether that effect is positive or negative. So no, little dosages over time do not do significant harm because you body metabolizes it.

    By your logic, aspirin should not be used, because taking a whole bottle of it will have very harmful effects. Nevermind that a small dose of aspirin every day lowers the risk of heart attack. As I said before, your logic rules out pretty much every medicine of every type available, because anything in high enough quantity is lethal.
    Last edited by CNagy; 5/17/2006 1:13pm at .
  9. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 1:12pm


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

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    Quote Originally Posted by theraydiator
    Iocane - the masked man was immune to Iocane.

    BUT - i don't know if the immunity plan works on anything besides iocane, fiction.
    It was more of a joke. How do you seriously respond to someone who is making the case about the long term effects of small doses of cyanide?
  10. Equipoise is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2006 5:54pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koto_Ryu
    Good article: http://www.ironmagazineforums.com/sh...82&postcount=1

    And being a big T-nation reader, AM, you should know about the Dead Pool.

    As far as nobody dying from steroids, might want to look into Eddie Guerrero dying at age 38 from heart disease that included a hardening and narrowing of the arteries, enlarged organs, and a number of other problems. Not to mention the 65 other pro wrestlers who died between 1997-2004 who were under 45, 25 of which were from coronary problems.

    Others who died from heart problems from steroid use:

    Charles Durr. Died at 45 due to coronary problems.

    Don Youngblood. Died at 51 due to a heart attack.

    Anthony Clark. Died at 38 from a heart attack.
    Paul "Quadzilla" DeMayo. Died at 37 due to a drug overdose.
    So you're saying 70 people died from steroid usage over the course of seven years. According to the NOAA Technical Memorandum NWS SR-193, 90 people are killed every year in the U.S. by lightning. So... more people die from lightning EACH year than they would if steroid usage actually killed people.


    Okay, for starters, these guys never died from steroid use, they died from Athersclerosis and general CVD. Saying the died from steroid usage is like blaming McDonald's for overweight people's deaths.

    CVD claimed 958,775 lives in the United States in 1999. This is 40.1 percent of all deaths.

    http://www.hearttechnology.com/AHA.htm


    So did all 958,775 people die because of steroid usage? Or even half? Or a quarter, tenth?

    Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration's National Household Survey on Drug Abuse reports that 1,084,000 adult Americans have reported using steroids...

    The more serious liver problems attributed to anabolic steroid use include hepatocellular carcinoma (liver cancer) and peliosis hepatitis (blood-filled sacs within the liver). But the majority of cases reporting liver problems have dealt with extremely sick and elderly patients treated with C-17 alkylated oral steroids for years of continuous use, and many of these patients had a particular type of anemia linked to liver tumors even without anabolic steroid therapy. A computer search of the medical literature looking for steroid-associated liver tumors could find only three in athletes (Friedl, 1990). Of the three athletes, one was using 700 mg of oxymetholone a week for five straight years, and one had a tumor more indicative of classic liver cancer than of steroid-associated tumors. Virtually all of the reported liver problems seemed to occur with the 17 alpha-alkylated oral steroids. There have been no cysts or liver tumors reported in athletes using the 17 beta-esterified injectable steroids (Wright & Cowart, p. 61). It has been noted that injectable steroids generally appear to have little effect on the liver at all (Haupt, 1993, p. 469).

    Recent studies continue to suggest that reports of serious adverse effects of anabolic steroids upon the liver in healthy athletes may be highly overstated. In a study of athletes, of the 53 current or past steroid users who underwent laboratory testing, only one subject displayed an abnormal liver test (Pope & Katz, 1994, p. 379; incidentally, on physical examination, not one user displayed evidence of any major abnormalities possibly attributable to steroids, such as high blood pressure, edema, acne or hair loss.) Another study tested one of the most powerful and reputedly dangerously toxic anabolic steroids for 30 weeks on HIV positive men and women (Hengge et al.). Oxymetholone, formerly known as Anadrol in the U.S. and a C-17 alkylated oral steroid, was administered in a dosage of over 1,000 mg per week (more than that used by many bodybuilders, and for a much longer duration of uninterrupted use). The results were significant gains in lean muscle mass -- even without any weightlifting. Even more importantly - and surprisingly -- there were no significant problems with liver function, water retention, or virilization side effects (it will be interesting to see whether further studies yield consistent findings at such high dosages).
    How cardiac risk might be increased by the use of steroids is a subject of speculation and some controversy. High blood pressure is perhaps "one of the most exaggerated claims" of steroid-related health risks, and remains unconfirmed despite numerous studies (Friedl, 1993, pp. 119-120). Regarding blood lipid levels, oral steroids in particular seem to cause a reduction in HDL (high-density lipoprotein cholesterol) levels in some steroid users. However, changes in the blood lipid levels now appear to begin to recover within about a month after discontinued use, and, in fact, most studies do not report an increase in total cholesterol (Yesalis & Cowart, p. 54).

    In examining cardiovascular risks, often cited is a case report by (R.A. McNutt, et al, 1988), concerning a 22-year-old steroid-using weightlifter who experienced a sudden heart attack. While often held out by anti-steroid authorities as the "smoking gun" connecting steroid use to heart attacks, a reading of the actual report reveals that the subject weighed 330 pounds and had a total serum cholesterol of a whopping 596 mg/dl! The fact that so few similar case studies exist may well indicate that the condition of this individual was hardly representative of the majority of athletes who use steroids. (Nonetheless, all strength athletes, including steroid users, should regularly monitor serum cholesterol. Obviously, this poor fellow didn't get his cholesterol to 596 overnight, and it is not reported when he last visited a physician prior to his heart attack. To what extent our nation's criminalization approach to steroids, which discourages steroid-users from seeing doctors, contributed to this result is open to speculation.)
    Last edited by Equipoise; 5/17/2006 5:58pm at .
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