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  1. Lane is offline
    Lane's Avatar

    Ex-ninja

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 12:42pm


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    An honest evaluation of an art, and something that teachers of that art should probably think about.

    Re: the breaking down of longer set techniques (kata, I suppose) into pieces

    I think that kata training (in the sense of pre-scripted drills) is useful at some level, and obviously you can break drills down into constituent techniques and recombine them, but it needs to be emphasized that although you'll get a good feel for the motions of a technique this way, the only way you'll ever get good at it is to do it more times full-speed than you did half-speed or slower.

    Not necessarily free form sparring, but attempting to perform a techinque on someone while they're fully resisting. Let me give you an example from judo. Suppose my uke and I have been trading off doing a drill on a throw. We've been practicing footwork, grips, kuzushi, fitting in, and finally throwing. Now, instead of just throwing us in randori, the sensei might have him try to do that throw on me full-speed while I do everything I can to resist it. We're still no at the "free sparring" level because he's locked in to one technique and I know what's coming. But if he can pull the technique off in this situation, it'll be easier for him to do in randori, right?

    The idea is that you have to build from the drill stage, to a hybrid full speed and resisting drill, to the ultimate test of free sparring, which is, "practice" for what you're going to be using this whole art for.

    I think you covered this point above, but I just reread and I didn't see it specifically in there, so I thought I'd get your input on it.
    --
    L.
  2. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 1:07pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IME, Kempo/Kenpo guys really are into their theory. Worse than Wing Chun. All this stuff about "screening" and "something open, something close" or something like that. WTF are they talking about, I'd love to know.
  3. sidran is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 2:40pm


     Style: Kung fu, Jiu-jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Finished reading it, it was a great article. A lot of good points that would bring kempo back if they ever got widespread for those who study/teach the style. Good job.
  4. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: 5.56

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I honestly don't care about Kenpo anymore. They are going to have to die off like the dinosaurs and be re-invented. The entrenched ranks are just too far gone to be saved.
  5. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:10pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arahoushi
    An honest evaluation of an art, and something that teachers of that art should probably think about.

    Re: the breaking down of longer set techniques (kata, I suppose) into pieces

    I think that kata training (in the sense of pre-scripted drills) is useful at some level, and obviously you can break drills down into constituent techniques and recombine them, but it needs to be emphasized that although you'll get a good feel for the motions of a technique this way, the only way you'll ever get good at it is to do it more times full-speed than you did half-speed or slower.

    Not necessarily free form sparring, but attempting to perform a techinque on someone while they're fully resisting. Let me give you an example from judo. Suppose my uke and I have been trading off doing a drill on a throw. We've been practicing footwork, grips, kuzushi, fitting in, and finally throwing. Now, instead of just throwing us in randori, the sensei might have him try to do that throw on me full-speed while I do everything I can to resist it. We're still no at the "free sparring" level because he's locked in to one technique and I know what's coming. But if he can pull the technique off in this situation, it'll be easier for him to do in randori, right?

    The idea is that you have to build from the drill stage, to a hybrid full speed and resisting drill, to the ultimate test of free sparring, which is, "practice" for what you're going to be using this whole art for.

    I think you covered this point above, but I just reread and I didn't see it specifically in there, so I thought I'd get your input on it.
    In re: kata (or forms)

    Initially, even Tai Chi was taught as single postures that were only strung together in a sequence after you'd mastered and drilled them individually for quite some time. The form is a way to link techniques together, and catalog and practice them.

    The slow movements (which we're infamous for) build strength a little differently, it's a steady controlled power. Once you've got it burned in slowly, the speed just comes naturally. It seems counter-intuitive, but it's true.

    It's like lifting weights slowly, if you do it fast, the initial power used is quite high, but after that, you've got a bit of momentum working with you, and almost nothing happening on the way down. If you do it slow, your muscles are working and straining every step of the way, up AND down, and so you build more strength.

    With empty hand forms that translates into speed and power, as the muscles used to support and propel the limb are strengthened and can add to the movement THROUGHOUT the lifetime of the strike.

    In re: two person drilling, etc.

    The problem a lot of folks have is in memorizing the sequence of movements within a drill. In my own experience, I'm thinking of sword drills, specifically. Some students just see the drills as a sequence of movements to be performed. They know that after they try to stab me, I'm going to coil them, so they go immediately into the coil after the stab, which means I'm following their sword instead of leading it.

    It's even worse on the defensive end, if you know what sequence of attacks is coming, you go immediately from block one to block two, and you wait for the opponent's sword to meet you there.

    While it makes for a smooth-looking set of drills, it doesn't really teach much in the way of actual skills.

    In any two-person drill set I endeavor to actually strike the opponent and block as if I don't know what's coming. The people I train with are the same way, and if we don't block correctly, we get hit, plain and simple. One of them is nursing a sore forehead as we speak because he didn't block my push effectively. Sometimes we even change them up and experiment with the subtleties of the movement.

    The same thing applies in push hands practice, if you're anticipating and moving according to the prearranged sequence, you're missing out on 95% of the practice.

    When it ceases to be a means of slowing down combat to analyze the details, it becomes a dance, and utterly worthless.

    And, finally,

    in re: kempo

    Sounds kinda like Tai Chi.
    Neat post.
  6. Darkpaladin is offline
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    The r34l Drunken Jiu Jitsu

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: _razilian _iu _itsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tl;dr
    :google:

    Number of bottles of beer downed by me and my girlfriend within a half hour while playing the Channel 7 "how many times will they say 'snow' game" during the "Blizzard of '06": 3.5 each.
  7. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 4:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nice article!
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

    New To Weight Training? Get the StrongLifts 5x5 program and Rippetoe's "Starting Strength, 2nd Ed". Wanna build muscle/gain weight? Check this article. My review on Tactical Nutrition here.

    t-nation - Dissecting the deadlift. Anatomy and Muscle Balancing Videos.

    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  8. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 6:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    The slow movements (which we're infamous for) build strength a little differently, it's a steady controlled power. Once you've got it burned in slowly, the speed just comes naturally. It seems counter-intuitive, but it's true.

    It's like lifting weights slowly, if you do it fast, the initial power used is quite high, but after that, you've got a bit of momentum working with you, and almost nothing happening on the way down. If you do it slow, your muscles are working and straining every step of the way, up AND down, and so you build more strength.

    With empty hand forms that translates into speed and power, as the muscles used to support and propel the limb are strengthened and can add to the movement THROUGHOUT the lifetime of the strike.

    Since the first proposition may not be correct, we could say that your conclusion is flawed.

    Altrough I agree on this:

    The problem a lot of folks have is in memorizing the sequence of movements within a drill. In my own experience, I'm thinking of sword drills, specifically. Some students just see the drills as a sequence of movements to be performed. They know that after they try to stab me, I'm going to coil them, so they go immediately into the coil after the stab, which means I'm following their sword instead of leading it.

    It's even worse on the defensive end, if you know what sequence of attacks is coming, you go immediately from block one to block two, and you wait for the opponent's sword to meet you there.

    While it makes for a smooth-looking set of drills, it doesn't really teach much in the way of actual skills.

    In any two-person drill set I endeavor to actually strike the opponent and block as if I don't know what's coming. The people I train with are the same way, and if we don't block correctly, we get hit, plain and simple. One of them is nursing a sore forehead as we speak because he didn't block my push effectively. Sometimes we even change them up and experiment with the subtleties of the movement.
  9. GIJoe6186 is offline
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    An American Hero!

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 6:27pm

    Business Class Supporting Membersupporting member
     TryKickboxingNow.com - Free Internet Marketing for Kickboxing Programs! Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Very kosher KempoFist. I liked the article and agree with boardHitBack. Maybe well have an Alive fist Kempo one day. Anyway Kempo is stil a good art it just needs to be applied in an alive manner. Then it will start to look similar to kickboxing but still different.

    Have a dead martial art? Just add aliveness and watch it grow!
  10. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 6:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Arahoushi
    An honest evaluation of an art, and something that teachers of that art should probably think about.

    Re: the breaking down of longer set techniques (kata, I suppose) into pieces

    I think that kata training (in the sense of pre-scripted drills) is useful at some level, and obviously you can break drills down into constituent techniques and recombine them, but it needs to be emphasized that although you'll get a good feel for the motions of a technique this way, the only way you'll ever get good at it is to do it more times full-speed than you did half-speed or slower.

    Not necessarily free form sparring, but attempting to perform a techinque on someone while they're fully resisting. Let me give you an example from judo. Suppose my uke and I have been trading off doing a drill on a throw. We've been practicing footwork, grips, kuzushi, fitting in, and finally throwing. Now, instead of just throwing us in randori, the sensei might have him try to do that throw on me full-speed while I do everything I can to resist it. We're still no at the "free sparring" level because he's locked in to one technique and I know what's coming. But if he can pull the technique off in this situation, it'll be easier for him to do in randori, right?

    The idea is that you have to build from the drill stage, to a hybrid full speed and resisting drill, to the ultimate test of free sparring, which is, "practice" for what you're going to be using this whole art for.

    I think you covered this point above, but I just reread and I didn't see it specifically in there, so I thought I'd get your input on it.
    Yeah, you make a very good point, and although I implied it I really should make a direct point about it in the final copy I give to my students. Thanks for the input. This is kinda why I threw this onto the flames of Bullshido before I decided this to be my final copy.
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