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  1. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 12:51am

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     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    are you talking about weapons in general or specifically about butterfly knives?
    There are double sword forms in most lineages, some use the butterfly swords other use different swords.

    If the people in say the 18th century were actually using the style for something more than a hobby swords must have been more important than empty hand techniques don't you think?

    When most of the practioners were merchant sons in Fatsan swordfighting might not have been that relevant.
  2. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 1:13am

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor X
    Do not buy it.

    "Then western boxing developed a bowlegged stance because most spent their time on horses. . . ."

    Unless someone has a actual evidence of fighting in these situations that necessitated such, it reads like too much post hoc analysis to me.

    --J.D.
    While I agree that it is all conjecture, and post hoc, your not getting my point.

    They lived on large flat houseboats. They did not need any special fighting for on the boats. They where wide and flat.

    Have you ever used a pole to steer a raft? It requires manipulations of the legs and torso. These directly overlap with Wing Whatever turning and application of power into hits. If I had a strong pair of legs and waist from steering rafts and long boats around, as well as skills in flinging power into the pole, manuvering via pushing off, and tactile feeling skills from tracking the pole tip on the seafloor, I would capitialize on that in my fighting.

    Its not that they fought on boats, its that they lived on them.

    Bowleged has nothing to do with how western boxing applys power and few peasants in Europe had horses of their own untill the days of the wild west, when the sixgun ruled. Now if you wanted to look into how to run a good shovel or pick-axe, and compair that to Western Boxing, we might go somewhere.

    As to the Knives, that has been covered atlength in the history section....

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
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  3. Doctor X is offline
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    ARGUMENTUM AD LATINUM DICTIONAIRUM

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 3:48am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Argumenta ad Rem

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    While I agree that it is all conjecture, and post hoc, your not getting my point.
    Yes I am. . . .

    Have you ever used a pole to steer a raft? It requires manipulations of the legs and torso. These directly overlap with Wing Whatever turning and application of power into hits.
    This is quite a bit different than what your originally conjecture:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Um, the fishing boats often used in Southern China are just shaped logs or rafts that you stand on, with a basket tied to them. They used poles to move about, carrying 10 or more Comerants to do the fishing for them.

    So, The "clamping" stance was very usefully to hold you onto the log. Pushing around with a pole, and steering via the torso and legs turning the log/raft, would be a fishermens strong muscle groups.
    Which is different than:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Its not that they fought on boats, its that they lived on them.
    If you mean now that developing good legs is helpful, that helps in any martial endevour, fine, but I do not find the connection your originally suggested unless you have some documentation for it.

    Bowleged has nothing to do with how western boxing applys power. . . .
    I know . . . I am just showing how post hoc analysis can fall apart. Believe me, I have seen enough of it in my style.

    Now if you wanted to look into how to run a good shovel or pick-axe, and compair that to Western Boxing, we might go somewhere.
    Which bring us, I think, to the more reasonable understanding that body mechanics is body mechanics--using your body efficiently.

    I would think the "problem" with modern Wing Chun is popularity and training methods. This is the same problem that infects any martial art.

    --J.D.
  4. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 6:57am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DTT, you are owning yourself with your posting.

    The only way to redeem yourself right now would be to tell me YOU live on a house boat and have to fight other people who live on other house boats.

    Otherwise, why the **** are you learning techniques designed for people living on boats? Do you live in Venice? Gondala driving job getting competitive, is it?
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
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  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 7:40am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Have you ever used a pole to steer a raft? It requires manipulations of the legs and torso. These directly overlap with Wing Whatever turning and application of power into hits. If I had a strong pair of legs and waist from steering rafts and long boats around, as well as skills in flinging power into the pole, manuvering via pushing off, and tactile feeling skills from tracking the pole tip on the seafloor, I would capitialize on that in my fighting.
    I suppose a good question would be whether *you* have the "strong pair of legs and waist", the "flinging power", and "tactile feeling" without living on a boat in the YangTze river 100-300 years ago.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

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  6. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 8:11am

    Join us... or die
     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No matter how many threads we make on _ing _un, the conclussion is always the same: it sucks and makes no sense.
  7. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 9:10am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The funny part is, even if we suddenly had proof that yes, Dr. Sun Tzu is right, the skills developed by chinese fishermen of the 18th century influenced the development of Wing Chun because it was designed to use those skills...well, we would have just another reason to diss the system: it is inneficient AND it was created for a specific working class to which no one here belongs.

    Nah, I´ll take IAP´s explanation. WC makes more sense as bad stand up grappling than as bad striking.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


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  8. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 9:17am

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     Style: None

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    The funny part is, even if we suddenly had proof that yes, Dr. Sun Tzu is right, the skills developed by chinese fishermen of the 18th century influenced the development of Wing Chun because it was designed to use those skills...well, we would have just another reason to diss the system: it is inneficient AND it was created for a specific working class to which no one here belongs.

    Nah, I´ll take IAP´s explanation. WC makes more sense as bad stand up grappling than as bad striking.
    Either way it's sub par compared to other styles.

    Mind you, I beleive that properly trained certain aspects of Wing chun could be useful as a supplement to other styles, but a good Wing Chun practitioner woill always be outstriked by a similary skilled striker trained in another striking art, and outgrappled by a similary skilled grappler trained in another grapplign art.

    I'd even say that MT clinch is superior to Wing Chun trapping, but I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
  9. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 11:04am

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     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    I'd even say that MT clinch is superior to Wing Chun trapping, but I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
    Well, I did two years of Lee Shing Wing Chun, and I´ve done a grand total of two years and three months of Muay Thai (and counting).

    I would say the MT clinch is easier to apply against a skilled fighter than the WC trapping, for the same reasons that it is easy to grapple someone who doesn´t want to be grappled: closing distance is relatively easy compared to keeping distance. And trapping relies on keeping distance.

    To be entirely honest, however, personally I dislike both "ranges" of combat, because, as a former judoka, I see both trapping and clinching as excellent opportunities for throws. I believe the only reason the MT clinch is used effectively, the way it is used in MT competitions, is related to rules forbidding the use of actual grappling techniques.

    As for trapping, well...either you use that expression as a synonym for outflanking (and in that case it is both relevant and useful) or you use it to designate the WC practice of "fencing" with your arms in order to control the opponent´s arms, which I really don´ t see as being remotely useful against someone reasonably skilled.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  10. meng_mao is offline
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    software engineer

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2006 11:29am

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WingChun Lawyer
    the way it is used in MT competitions, is related to rules forbidding the use of actual grappling techniques.
    Upper body throws don't count as actual grappling techniques? I would say the throws in MT are...high level?...and thus aren't very effective for guys who train other stuff most of the time.
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

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