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  1. Hurt is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 11:41pm


     Style: Short fat wimp style MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    Anyone have a link to a Wrestling pumelling drill?

    It seems to me if you combined the 2 so that you started of using the rolling arns and slaps as a set up to shoot in underhooks and such like you see in pummeling drills you would would actually have a usefully technique / drill for combining trapping / distration type hitting (slapy slap slaps) and Greco wrestling style takedowns.
    I just think the "slappy slap" goes right out the window. Start in that standard greco clinch, go for the body lock or the thai clinch, or any other takedown and you don't really need the slapping. We drill that **** at my school. I may be extreme short sighted but I don't see short punches being that effective if your hands are already locked up with someone who wants to clinch and take you down.

    And is chain punching really just repititions of the boxing 1-2, like Vitor threw? I thought there were differences?
  2. super kick is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 12:08am


     Style: street fighting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bong
    http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/wingchun/wing-mike_31.mpg

    Some guy call Alan Orr.

    Whats peoples opinions?

    Pretty good resistance. It's kinda similar to the chi sao we do.
    Weak, applications look of some use, guy looked really flummoxed this is why he was getting slapped around like a fly.
  3. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 7:43am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurt
    And is chain punching really just repititions of the boxing 1-2, like Vitor threw? I thought there were differences?
    I guess it depends if you are doing the 'real' (tm) __ing __un or not.

    I do interpret Chain punching as more of an opportunistic 'straight blast' or a "Boxing Blast" that has come about from some sort of combination of training WC/Boxing/MT/etc etc. My personal opinion is that it is a tool within an arsenal, not a be all and end all of technique. Just as a 'real' (tm) WC Pak-Sao looks remarkably like a boxing parry.

    There are WC schools that do only Chi-Sao and Static (feet square to the target) Chain Punching the air every class as the solution to all problems. You even get claims of chain punching a wrestler's shot (Stupid).

    I just cant see how you can generate the same power from a pigen toed knock-kneed stance as compared to the boxing stance that Vitor uses in that video.

    There are tools in WC that have use - the problem is dogma and blind adherance to the art as it was. As DTT put it earlier - we should not leave __ing __un in 1773
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  4. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 8:01am

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSparrow
    Alan Orr is the guy behind "Body Structure Wing Chun". He has a fair few people compete in Amatuer MMA
    I posted a link to his stuff because as an ex-WC person I was interested when I found WC people interested in full-contact competition. He also teaches catch wrestling (IIRC, definitely some kid of non-JJJ/BJJ/Judo dervied sub-grappling). How have his people done in MMA, and would you ascribe any success more to WC or to the wrestling he teaches ?

    Pretty sure his guys are not pure Wing Chun.
    Definitely aren't, but that's probably to his credit. I've read other threads here about other guys who teach Wing Chun as part of a mix (often supplimenting it with another standup art) who do good. I'm still unsure what these rare people who seem to be able to fight well get from their wing chun in amongst the boxing and sub-grappling.

    As for the chi sao itself, I've seen that video before, just didn't realise it was Alan Orr. As supercrap said, you're damned it you do and you're damnd if you don't. Chi Sao is inherently limited and my major problems with it were the amount of time you would spend in the exercise. Spending 80% of your classtime doing chi sao is not conducive to becoming a better fighter.
    That's why I left WC after about 2.5 years.

    And you can't just by-pass that by turning it into something that it isn't meant to be. You may as well spar.

    But yeah, Alan Orr's Wing Chun must be some of the best in the world- mainly because when they fight it doesn't look like Wing Chun ;-)
    I think you're on to something. However, I've still foung little bits of Wing Chun useful in 'live' settings, so maybe it has some usefullness to older MAists who already have very solid fundamentals, just a few extra tricks, you know ?
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  5. Bong is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 6:46pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    I guess it depends if you are doing the 'real' (tm) __ing __un or not.

    I do interpret Chain punching as more of an opportunistic 'straight blast' or a "Boxing Blast" that has come about from some sort of combination of training WC/Boxing/MT/etc etc. My personal opinion is that it is a tool within an arsenal, not a be all and end all of technique. Just as a 'real' (tm) WC Pak-Sao looks remarkably like a boxing parry.

    There are WC schools that do only Chi-Sao and Static (feet square to the target) Chain Punching the air every class as the solution to all problems. You even get claims of chain punching a wrestler's shot (Stupid).

    I just cant see how you can generate the same power from a pigen toed knock-kneed stance as compared to the boxing stance that Vitor uses in that video.

    There are tools in WC that have use - the problem is dogma and blind adherance to the art as it was. As DTT put it earlier - we should not leave __ing __un in 1773
    My view is that you shouldn't do more than 4 chain punches. If you don't hit them after say 2 punches, your probably not going to, so do something else.
    Last edited by Bong; 5/14/2006 6:49pm at .
  6. Freakshow is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 7:20pm


     Style: Box, Kickbox, No-gi BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    That being said...it is a miserable waste of time if you just want to learn how to throw punches and beat people up.
    What else is there to MA, other than learning to "beat people up"?
  7. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 7:40pm

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     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    There are tools in WC that have use - the problem is dogma and blind adherance to the art as it was. As DTT put it earlier - we should not leave __ing __un in 1773
    Hell, in WT we didn't even want to leave it in Yip Mans 1960's, and in EBMAS, we do not leave it as it was in before the Big Split in 2001. "Eternal Spring" does mean always growing. The whole "tradition" in the system is to continue to improve....

    Jonhys right, Chunners do tend to stick out the chin, I know its one of my worst bad habits.

    as to foot work, basic Chi Sau is done standing face to face with no turn and no foot work to isolate the arm movements. It's goal is to learn to stay squared up and use both arms to do the work of wedging away attacks, and punching from left and right. It FORCES you to learn to use the arms. The wall in the video is forceing the guy to stand firm and try to save with the arms. Unfortunatley I think the vid was to showcase alans skills, so he should have been the one with his back to the wall...beating the guy stepping in each time.

    In Chi Sau, after the basics are learned, in WT, we add a Forward step and offline turn, then later Steping off at 45 degress, stepping back, as well as kicks. You still try to hold your ground, and its the jammed up limbs and their forward step that turns you back.

    problem is people do not get that far, and judge the whole system on their first few months of class. or the Sifu doesn't know the footwork so he either, doesn't teach it, or adds footwork in from another styles, which usually is footwork desinged to do the work the Wing Chun arms are allready doing, i.e. stepping back to avoid a hit.

    As to Alans vid, in WT this would be more like applications, not Chi Sau. Its kinda a hybrid chi sau/ applications drill. You can always do freestyle Chi Sau, but the point of Chi Sau is not to spar, but to purposely train muscle memory. As someone allready said, if you are gonna have a contest, might as well spar instead. Chi sau is a intentional series of repeated movements to develop muscle memory. Even if you beat someone to a punch, you suppress it so they can practice the counter to that stimulation. Why? Because YOU want to practice the counter to the counter. So a Chi Sau section will run along with noone getting anything through, just a back and forth.

    In sparring, you get your hit in, or they counter and hit you. or you counter their counter. It generally doesn't go more than three or four of these, due to footwork, or the onset of grappling, elbows, knees, (or someones knocked down!). So a fight will never look like Chi Sau, but the elements of sensitivity is there non-the-less.

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  8. Dr._Tzun_Tzu is offline
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    It's pretty beat up, but it is a complete copy....

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 7:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: EBMAS WT/ Latosa Concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    So I turned up at this swim class and the instructor said to us:
    OK, that is the most bogus analogy and it is really tired.

    Swimming invovles no contact with another individual, and fighting does not change physical mediums from training to the event.

    So compairing dry land swimming to swimming itself doesn't really fit. and compairing a sensitvity drill between two people to a solo sport doesn't work either.

    Now, when people take a surfing class, which involes a solo person and a SURFBOARD (opponent), and Big Waves (Scary enviornment), they do teach you to paddle and stand up ON DRY LAND. If you cann't stand up on the board on the beach, you are not gonna do it on water.. but once you get the muscle memory down, you can go into the water. Once you can do it in water, you can go out to the waves.

    Chi Sau is just the part on the beach. Granted if its ALL a WC school teachs, then they need to get in the water.

    and you could also make the point that eventually the Chunner would just spar, with the sensitivity developed via the progresive steps.

    but the Dry Land swimming **** is just silly....

    "If anything is gained from this, it should be you both wanting to get better so you can make up for how crappy you are now." KidSpatula about the Sirc vs DTT Gong Sau Event
    Until the Bulltube is fixed:
    DTT vs Sirc

  9. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    5/15/2006 12:50am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

    Jonhys right,
    Sigged!
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  10. Astrosmurf is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/15/2006 4:06am

    supporting member
     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Evidence suggest that Chi sao is an outdated training method that you should stay away from if you want to maximize your fighting skill/training time quota.

    If you want to do Chi sao I think it should be mainly for artistic purposes.
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