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  1. supercrap is offline
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    Founder/GrandSensei of Joint British / Papua New Guinean Non-contact Lawn Bowls Jiu Jitsu Committee

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    Least Cool Guy in all of Japan
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 6:17am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's a kind of damned if you do, damned if you dont thing with wing chun.


    On the one hand, at least you can see some force being applied there.

    On the other hand, for a master, he looks damn sloppy. Leaning, pushing, shoving, etc. Wing chun breaks down when it's done like that.


    I think he has a brain on his shoulders though, has some kind of association with British MMA.
    Imports from Japan, Shipping Worldwide! Art Junkie, Scramble, BJJ Spirits, Reversal...
    Scramble Stuff
  2. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 6:25am


     Style: Shutting up and training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Alan Orr is the guy behind "Body Structure Wing Chun". He has a fair few people compete in Amatuer MMA, which is interesting because there are no head shots, so I don't see how Wing Chun could apply very well.
    Pretty sure his guys are not pure Wing Chun.

    Here's their fights:
    http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/images...s%20clips.html

    As for the chi sao itself, I've seen that video before, just didn't realise it was Alan Orr. As supercrap said, you're damned it you do and you're damnd if you don't. Chi Sao is inherently limited and my major problems with it were the amount of time you would spend in the exercise. Spending 80% of your classtime doing chi sao is not conducive to becoming a better fighter.
    And you can't just by-pass that by turning it into something that it isn't meant to be. You may as well spar.

    But yeah, Alan Orr's Wing Chun must be some of the best in the world- mainly because when they fight it doesn't look like Wing Chun ;-)
  3. Southpaw is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 7:11am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bong
    Yes, chi sao is to develop sensitivity, but it isn't jus about rolling your arms. You need to strike against a non-compliance partner. The better you get, and the more sensitive you become, chi sao can/should become more "freestyle." It dosn't mean your not using sensitivity.
    Chi sao is about using sensitivity to find openings. There is no such thing as chi sao against a 'non-compliance' partner. If you find an opening, you should strike, but you do in to the degree to show your partner that they have an opening or hole, not to spazz out and throw a bunch of punches at your partner.

    Yes...the more you do it, the better you become. And yes, as you get good, it become more free-flowing...especially with adding footwork and transitioning from lop sao drill to chi sao. But it should never look like the video. That was ridiculous.
  4. Dagon Akujin is offline
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    "I feel naked I was so distracted by your penis"

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 1:19pm


     Style: Ving Tsun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    There is no such thing as chi sao against a 'non-compliance' partner.
    Don't you mean there is no such thing as compliant chi-sau? (Yes, it's a very limited drill in a lot of ways, but partners arn't just allowing things to happen to them.) Limited ruleset =/= compliant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    But it should never look like the video. That was ridiculous.
    I didn't think it looked that bad as an interpretation of chi sau. It was interesting to see one partner started against a wall, and it looked to me like Orr was throwing some crosses, body shots, and knees that don't show up often in standard chi sau (and not using much trapping or faan saus). I think it certainly looked like an interesting training excercise, though it would be going way too far to say that's what chi sau is supposed to look like.

    What about this one Amp: Chi Sau? There's some kiu sau in it too, though it's a bit more one-sided (a sifu playing around with his student).

    Thanky,

    Dagon "mullet finger" Akujin
  5. Southpaw is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 1:48pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dagon Akujin
    What about this one Amp: Chi Sau? There's some kiu sau in it too, though it's a bit more one-sided (a sifu playing around with his student).

    Thanky,

    Dagon "mullet finger" Akujin

    Looks better than the 1st one.

    Looks like they are both getting something out of it I guess?

    I should note...me criticizing anyone's chi sao is just me talking out of my ass since my chi sao sucks just like everyone else's.
  6. Bong is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 2:34pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Amp
    Chi sao is about using sensitivity to find openings. There is no such thing as chi sao against a 'non-compliance' partner. If you find an opening, you should strike, but you do in to the degree to show your partner that they have an opening or hole, not to spazz out and throw a bunch of punches at your partner.
    So when you chi sao, your partner just allows your to hit him? He doesn’t "block" and make it difficult. That's what i meant when i said non-compliant - someone who isn't just going to be a doormat.
  7. MaverickZ is offline

    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 2:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Wing Chun is a traditonal martial art. If you aren't interested in learning a traditional martial art, and aren't prepared to accept the facts that go along with that, you shouldn't train wing chun."

    What the **** does that even mean? that's the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard.
  8. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 2:55pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I could take anyone and teach them to destroy you at chi sau by doing three things:

    Tucking the chin

    Bunching the shoulders

    Moving the feet

    **** chi sau it makes people bad at fighting.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  9. Neildo is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 3:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FBSD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    "Wing Chun is a traditonal martial art. If you aren't interested in learning a traditional martial art, and aren't prepared to accept the facts that go along with that, you shouldn't train wing chun."

    What the **** does that even mean?
    Fact: WC'ers suck at fighting.

    He's saying If you don't want to suck at fighting, don't take WC.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    I could take anyone and teach them to destroy you at chi sau by doing three things:

    • Tucking the chin
      Bunching the shoulders
      Moving the feet

    **** chi sau it makes people bad at fighting.
    Word.
    :new_all_c
  10. Southpaw is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2006 4:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bong
    So when you chi sao, your partner just allows your to hit him? He doesn’t "block" and make it difficult. That's what i meant when i said non-compliant - someone who isn't just going to be a doormat.
    Of course my partner tries to block, it is in interactive drill.
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