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  1. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:04pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And for clarity, sparring is nothing more than unchoreographed drilling.
    Not really. By its nature a DRILL is an already laid out movements.

    You might need a little practice putting on specific techniques against a resissting opponent, but you don't necesarrily need to fight every day, or even every week, to retain the specific skills that you can only get from an actual fight.
    True you don't need ot fight as much as you drill but fighting still needs to be done regularly.

    Drills provide physical conditioning. Fighting provides mental conditioning.
    thats overly simplictic.

    BOTH provide physical conditioning and mental conditioning but there is difference in the two. Fighting involves way more factors than drilling and therefore you get more out of your training.

    What's your fight/drill ratio?
    At the moment its 50/50, but its for a purpose now.
    ______
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    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  2. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:20pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by LORD ASIA
    Not really. By its nature a DRILL is an already laid out movements.
    But sparring is hardly fighting. We drill and spar to learn, we fight to win, right? Unless I'm just going about this thing all wrong, lol. To go back to the pro-sports analogy, who cares who wins the scrimmage?

    Call it what you like, drilling and sparring are different than fighting and have more in common with each other than they do with fighting.


    True you don't need ot fight as much as you drill but fighting still needs to be done regularly.
    Agreed. In an ideal situation, yes. And only after being properly prepared through drilling.

    thats overly simplictic.
    True, but getting complicated tends to complicate things. I think it summed up my thoughts adequately.

    BOTH provide physical conditioning and mental conditioning but there is difference in the two. Fighting involves way more factors than drilling and therefore you get more out of your training.
    Sure, there's nothing like the real thing for learning, but what you learn in a fight is different than what you learn through the rest of your practice. Aside from basic strength and endurance, what you're getting in a fight situation is primarily mental, and not physical, at it's very essence. Unless you count the things your body "learns" as physical, I consider those to also be mental. Agreed?

    At the moment its 50/50, but its for a purpose now.
    1. Are you counting sparring as fighting?

    2. And there goes my point from a couple days ago, learning a martial art is different than training for a fight. Would you agree?
  3. CNagy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:48pm


     Style: Hiatus for Gen. Fitness

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spyda
    Hold on, so what is being said is that Rocko could basiclly punch THROUGH anything that an armor-piercing bullet? :wtfgif9fr soooooooooo, that means that if he were to get into a fight with john doe on the street, he could punch a hole into the man. EVEN if this was all fact, that also means that when he had gloves on in the ring, his punch would be able ta break a neck with ease. ta my knowleadge, this never happened.
    I'm willing to bet it is more of a comparison quote. Imagine the force that you can generate with an elbow strike, let's say (just because that happens to be my favorite.) Now take that force and reduce the surface area that it is acting on to a single point akin to the contact point from a bullet. Alot of force in a little area would have quite a bit of penetration.

    That's the only thing that I can think of, because they couldn't possibly mean that he could punch through various armors.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:54pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CNagy
    I'm willing to bet it is more of a comparison quote. Imagine the force that you can generate with an elbow strike, let's say (just because that happens to be my favorite.) Now take that force and reduce the surface area that it is acting on to a single point akin to the contact point from a bullet. Alot of force in a little area would have quite a bit of penetration.

    That's the only thing that I can think of, because they couldn't possibly mean that he could punch through various armors.
    Again a bullet is moving at SUPERSONIC speed. Humans can't move that fast therefor I doubt that such a comparison can really be made.:copdance:
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 3:58pm

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But sparring is hardly fighting. We drill and spar to learn, we fight to win, right? Unless I'm just going about this thing all wrong, lol. To go back to the pro-sports analogy, who cares who wins the scrimmage?
    Your sparring should be a less intensive version on how you plan to fight. If you are not doing that then you got things wrong. Hence the old sayining, "You fight how you train." Sparring is how you should be fighting.

    And pple do care who wins the scrimmage.

    I'll get to the rest later, have to head to dinner.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 4:30pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Unless I'm just going about this thing all wrong, lol.

    Call it what you like, drilling and sparring are different than fighting and have more in common with each other than they do with fighting.
    I think you harbor some strange notions about sparring. There is a continuum in sparring, from light to very hard. Light sparring is nowhere near 'fight level' intensity, in fact it's closer to standard drilling. Hard sparring should be much closer to the intensity found in an actual altercation. Eye-gouges and such might be off-limits, but you should still have to deal with things that are fight enders, like getting knocked out, while sparring at a high intensity.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  7. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 4:59pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    I think you harbor some strange notions about sparring. There is a continuum in sparring, from light to very hard. Light sparring is nowhere near 'fight level' intensity, in fact it's closer to standard drilling. Hard sparring should be much closer to the intensity found in an actual altercation. Eye-gouges and such might be off-limits, but you should still have to deal with things that are fight enders, like getting knocked out, while sparring at a high intensity.
    Sure, and that's why, no matter what I say, someone will take issue with it.

    If I say I spar lightly someone says I'm not sparring, if I say I don't want to spar to the point where I'm pounding faces into pudding, then I don't understand what sparring is.

    It's tiresome.

    But the point is the exercise, not the victory, and that applies to sparring, drilling, and internet discussions.

    The important point in this particular discussion is that it takes a lot of drilling AND fighting to become a superior fighter.

    Drilling puts the skills in your body, and fighting puts the skills into use.

    It takes a lot longer to forget how to use the skills than it does to lose the physical ability to perfom them.

    Any further discussion is debating semantics.

    Fight vs. Spar vs. Drill vs. Whatever.

    The key to mastery is repetition, period. And you can get a lot more repetitions in via drilling than engaging an opponent.
    Last edited by peng; 5/14/2006 5:02pm at .
  8. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 5:07pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elnyka
    Peng, honest to God, I'm not getting your dichotomy of fighting vs sparring. Sparring is a less intensive version of fighting - that is, it should gradually get as close as possible to a real fight, but with enough moderation that it can be done repetitively.

    And even with the so-called moderation, even if you and your sparring partner are carefull, bad **** can happen in sparring. Last friiday night, I landed on the back of my head during a throw, and I got bruises all over. In a controlled environment, it got as real as it can get to a real fight despite all precausions.

    So from a personal annecdote, I don't see how sparring can be so different from fighting. In fighting you fight to win, granted. But in sparring, you sparr to learn, and to push yourself to win, so that you can win (or at least avoid getting seriously fucked up in a real situation.) If there is no much distinction between sparring and drilling, then there is something wrong with that method of sparring IMO.
    Why do I let myself get engaged in these discusisons?

    Yes, I agree. I don't disagree. I agree that you have to fight, but you have to drill and sparring is more like drilling than fighting.

    Yes, bad **** can happen, hell, people get hurt in push hands, even. Falling wrong from a strong throw, some asshat getting too agressive and injuring an elbow. The point of martial arts is to inflict injury on an opponent, and we don't always succeed in not injuring partners.

    This is getting fucking ridiculous again.
  9. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 5:19pm

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     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Why do I let myself get engaged in these discusisons?

    Yes, I agree. I don't disagree. I agree that you have to fight, but you have to drill and sparring is more like drilling than fighting.
    Therein is where I think you are either wrong, or your understanding of sparring is different from mine.

    Let me just give you what I understand as a drill and sparring. Take Judo for example. We drill our throws via what's called ukemi. You repeat the drills again and again, but you never complete the throw on your partner. You work the details, the footwork, the foot sweeps, the pulling, the hard contact your hips or elbows need to do on your partner's body to umbalance him. You switch roles back and forth with your partner.

    Then there is the same repetion, the same drills done 10 times, but on the last time, you actually throw your partner. You can decide to execute the throw full force or in a more controlled manner if your partner is still not good enough at breaking the falls in a safe manner.

    The same drills above can be done while both participants are stationary, or if they agree, they can do so while moving.

    Then there is the same drills but against two partners. You actually go full force against your partner, while another person is holding your partner so that you cannot throw him no matter how you hard you try. And you try hard, and your partner gets hit in the process. That's what I could call a power drills.

    But that doesn't compare to sparring. Once you sparr, you go balls out short of trying to **** him up. You try to do your best to win while your opponent (no longer your partner) tries the best to counter you and to win over you.

    He is where sparring is differnent from a drill. There are no pre-arranged movements and techniques in sparring. It's controlled, but UNPREDICTABLE. A drill is predictable, a sparring session is not independently of its intensity.

    You won't get hurt in a drill unless you or your partner are careless. In sparring, your chances of getting hurt will increase as the intensity of it increases. But the key feature of sparring is that it should be as unpredictable as possible in a way that allows you to practice and learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    This is getting fucking ridiculous again.
    He, it's the nature of the beast.
    Last edited by Teh El Macho; 5/14/2006 5:21pm at .
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  10. kipdynamite is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 5:32pm


     Style: judo, boxing, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Marciano studied juijitsu FACT!

    I have the ring magazine that talks about the fact the Real Rock learning juijitsu. He was also a good street brawler, I wished I'd have had a teacher like him instead of some of the Bullshido artists I have had over the years.
    As for the armor piercing stuff " bullshido!"
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