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  1. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 11:58am


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    I'd say it takes more than drills to achieve it.

    As in "drills alone are not enough".
    Drills make the movement natural.

    They don't practice three pointers in the NBA playoffs. They practice throwing them before the game, so when the game comes the movement is natural and smooth.

    For every minute of gametime, there's an hour of drill and practice beforehand, not counting "scrimmages" and all the time it took them to get there.

    Application against a live opponent is critical to mastery, but not nearly as important as drilling.
  2. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 12:01pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Application against a live opponent is critical to mastery, but not nearly as important as drilling.
    I disagree.

    Drilling constitutes the base, but the application on a live opponent is needed to "putting it all togheter".
  3. Spyda is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 1:07pm


     Style: MT, Submission-Fighting

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by rlee34

    His punch was measured to have the power of an armor piercing shell. Not bullshido!

    In 1963, the U.S. Testing Company was asked to measure the power of Rocky's punch. It found that Marciano's knockout punch packed more explosive energy than an armor-piercing bullet and represented as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, Marciano beat down the guards of his opponents, and then, with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, he hammered them into submission.


    Hold on, so what is being said is that Rocko could basiclly punch THROUGH anything that an armor-piercing bullet? :wtfgif9fr soooooooooo, that means that if he were to get into a fight with john doe on the street, he could punch a hole into the man. EVEN if this was all fact, that also means that when he had gloves on in the ring, his punch would be able ta break a neck with ease. ta my knowleadge, this never happened.
  4. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 1:49pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    I disagree.

    Drilling constitutes the base, but the application on a live opponent is needed to "putting it all togheter".

    Of course it helps, but in an actual sparring situation you have one, maybe two chances to receive and respond to a specific technique, wheras drilling allows you near-unlimited numbers of practice rounds.

    Going back the the SCA for a second, the most feared and respected fighter in Trimaris (the southeastern "kingdom") was a guy named Baldur who threw a thousand pell strokes a day. He also attended fight practice once a month or so, maybe, sometimes, but he had no trouble wiping the dirt with folks who fought two or three times a week, regularly.

    Of course, this is the cue for "but the SCA isn't real fighting" line, but that isn't the point.

    The point is that the thousand strokes a day made his body so comfortable throwing those strokes that he didn't have to think to make his sword go where he wanted, by the time he realized he was looking at an opening, contact was already made and the opponent beaten.

    The skills imparted via fighting, strategy, looking for openings, dealing with the opponents mechanical force, getting past the fear of being hit, etc, aren't nearly as important as the muscle memory and "body thinking" that drilling engenders.

    If you neglect the drills, your skill fades, if you neglect fighting (once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat) you can still maintain and build competence through drills.

    Six gates are six gates, they never change, and they change from opponent to opponent. Fighting any one person will not necesarrily prepare you to fight the next person, but drilling prepares your body to deal with anything.

    Mind you, I'm not saying that actual sparring and fighting are unnecesarry, just that they are less important than drills.

    In REAL combat, you only get one chance.
  5. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 1:59pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Spyda
    Hold on, so what is being said is that Rocko could basiclly punch THROUGH anything that an armor-piercing bullet? :wtfgif9fr soooooooooo, that means that if he were to get into a fight with john doe on the street, he could punch a hole into the man. EVEN if this was all fact, that also means that when he had gloves on in the ring, his punch would be able ta break a neck with ease. ta my knowleadge, this never happened.
    Unavailable for comment.
  6. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 2:07pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Of course, this is the cue for "but the SCA isn't real fighting" line, but that isn't the point.
    No, the cue is that you're talking about a freak of nature who lived a couple of centuries ago or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    The point is that the thousand strokes a day made his body so comfortable throwing those strokes that he didn't have to think to make his sword go where he wanted, by the time he realized he was looking at an opening, contact was already made and the opponent beaten.
    This has been beaten to dead here a thousan times. I'm not feeling like repeating it all again. If you want to learn to fight, eventually you'll have to fight. No matter how much you practice body movement off of water, if you ever want to learn to swim, you have to get wet.

    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    The skills imparted via fighting, strategy, looking for openings, dealing with the opponents mechanical force, getting past the fear of being hit, etc, aren't nearly as important as the muscle memory and "body thinking" that drilling engenders.

    If you neglect the drills, your skill fades, if you neglect fighting (once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat) you can still maintain and build competence through drills.

    Six gates are six gates, they never change, and they change from opponent to opponent. Fighting any one person will not necesarrily prepare you to fight the next person, but drilling prepares your body to deal with anything.

    Mind you, I'm not saying that actual sparring and fighting are unnecesarry, just that they are less important than drills.

    In REAL combat, you only get one chance.
    I didn't say drilling wasn't important or unnecessary. So you can keep your strwaman for yourself, thank you.

    I'm saying that drilling alone, as important it is to get good body movement and good tehcnique is not enough to learn to fight.

    Leaving aside the exceptionally naturally talented figthter, you'll need to fight, and a lot, to become proficent at it. As in everything in life.

    If you fail to see this, you may want to read more on this subject on this same forum.
  7. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 2:17pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    No, the cue is that you're talking about a freak of nature who lived a couple of centuries ago or so.
    No, I'm talking about a lawyer who lives in Florida.


    This has been beaten to dead here a thousan times. I'm not feeling like repeating it all again. If you want to learn to fight, eventually you'll have to fight. No matter how much you practice body movement off of water, if you ever want to learn to swim, you have to get wet.
    Agreed.

    I'm saying that drilling alone, as important it is to get good body movement and good tehcnique is not enough to learn to fight.
    Agreed.

    If you fail to see this, you may want to read more on this subject on this same forum.
    If you fail to see that my previous posts did not contradict in any way from what you just said, you may want to read more on THIS subject.

  8. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 2:23pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    If you fail to see that my previous posts did not contradict in any way from what you just said, you may want to read more on THIS subject.
    But yet, you said:

    If you neglect the drills, your skill fades, if you neglect fighting (once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat) you can still maintain and build competence through drills.
    Body mechanics/technique competence? yes. Fighting competence? no.
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 2:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you neglect the drills, your skill fades, if you neglect fighting (once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat) you can still maintain and build competence through drills.
    This is very WRONG.

    If you neglect either you skills will fade. If you neglect fighting and only drill you will not be at the same level of competence as you once were.

    Anyone who fights regularly will tell you this.
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  10. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2006 2:38pm


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out
    But yet, you said:



    Body mechanics/technique competence? yes. Fighting competence? no.
    perhaps if I'd said "once you've established a firm base in the tactics and strategies of combat by fighting" it would have made more sense to you.

    What I mean is that, yes you need to fight to understand how to fight, but once you know how to fight, you basically know how to fight, and the dynamics of fighting aren't going to change that much. It gets into your body and you know how to respond.

    You might need a little practice putting on specific techniques against a resissting opponent, but you don't necesarrily need to fight every day, or even every week, to retain the specific skills that you can only get from an actual fight.

    Contrasted with the almost instantaneous drop in skill level if you neglect your drills and training for even one day, I think the importance is obvious.

    Drills provide physical conditioning. Fighting provides mental conditioning.

    Both are important, but post-analysis, watching others, studying strategy manuals, etc, can all help contribute to and help maintain the mental conditioning.

    Yes, you MUST actually fight to put things together, but you don't need to fight as much as you drill in order to be effective.

    You COULDN'T fight as much as you drill. You would die of exhaustion.

    Determining the exact ratio of drilling to fighting is impossible, but I'd say at least a 10 to 1 mix of drilling to fighting is reasonable and average. That may even be a little too much fighting, even.

    There may be people on this board that spend 50% or more of their training time on actual fighting, but I doubt it.

    And for clarity, sparring is nothing more than unchoreographed drilling.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Asia
    This is very WRONG.

    If you neglect either you skills will fade. If you neglect fighting and only drill you will not be at the same level of competence as you once were.

    Anyone who fights regularly will tell you this.
    You're misintepreting what I'm saying.

    It isn't that you "only" drill. And yes, not fighting will cause your skills to fade, but not nearly as radically as if you stop drilling.

    What's your fight/drill ratio?
    Last edited by peng; 5/14/2006 2:45pm at .
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