Old School DM
Posted On:6/28/2007 7:21pm
Style: Nothing current
Man, I'm getting good. I don't even have to read these thread anymore. I just skim through and add up all of the "things that make you go hmmmmm", and I can pretty much tell if its BS without even paying attention. :laughing5
1. Shaolin in name? Check.
2. Grandmaster/O'Sensei? Check.
3. Master of multiple styles? Check.
4. Hall of fame credentials? Check.
5. Semi literate drivel posted as a defence? Check.
6. Never actually answering useful questions while arrogantly attacking the questioner as rude? Check.
If it walks like a duck...
Jesus loves you. I think you're an asshole.
Posted On:6/29/2007 9:47am
Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ
Originally Posted by Asia the Invincible
I would have to disagree. The reason why is because when pple say this they make it seem like CMA, or MA in general, is some uber long drawn out skill set that requires way too much time and effort to master more than one. That is actually BS. If someone can legitimately academic degrees (something that does require alot of time and effort) then MA is nothing special. There isn't much to MA, really. And learning and mastering different systems just means you want to invest more time in it than someone else and not that its something special.
The intent isn't to make CMA or any MA something more than what it is. Mastery/Master is in my opinion, and over used and often abused label. We've all known of "masters" who clearly are sub par, and hopefully most have met someone who (regardless of thier title or lack there of) had an exceptional level of skill. For example, I've had the pleasure of working with a Judo sensei who's judo and teaching method for it was out of this world good. His JJ was not so good. I consider him to be a "master" in Judo, and something less than that in JJ: Good guy, bot not a master of two arts.
In my view, a Master is a specialist; the kind of person you want to learn a set of skills from to improve that part of your game, or a person who embodies the level of skill to attain and sets the bar very high. Few people can live up to that in more than one art, though I'm sure there are exceptional individuals out there....but they are just that, exceptional. In this case, Wong Kiew Kit tries to pass off as a master of many things, but I've no doubt he fails to live up to mastery in all or any of them.
Posted On:6/30/2007 4:40pm
Style: Alien Cosmic Chi Quan
Wow. Apparently I had such a big impact that I made it into their main page (not the forums).
Like 10 of their students PM'd me apologizing, embarrassed , and everything for their ridiculous behaviors on the forum. Many regulars there also PM'd me, asking me if they thought it was a cult (which most of them did think). If I was a paid instructor of such a business, I too would probably take extra measures to ensure that I don't lose the business. I mean most of these guys, by the little teenage "shaolin experts" are revered as "masters." Just because they teach, and were made "master" by WKK. It probably has alot to do with the Ego....would you want to lose this "power" ? To have little kids, and ignorant westerners alike listening to every word you say, respecting you for no other reason except that you are a 'master' ? If I was in their shoes, I would probably behave in a similar manner.
Unfortunately, for anyone who is not a student, and has even a shred of common sense, it is quite obvious how defensive their behavior is. And furthermore, it is telling of what they are trying to hide. These are the types who promote Chi Gong as something that will bring 100% more efficiency to their art, "internal force," as they call it, can penetrate anything. Especially Muy Thai fighters and Boxers...Any person who is not a student or an instructor at that school, who says anything even slightly different is immediately jumped on.
Normally, I would not be so disrespectful, but they were disrespectful to me from the very get-go. Apparently they had some hidden agenda towards me, because I didn't like what Shaolin Wahnam had to offer in another forum? (possibly this one). Meh, it doesn't really matter anymore.
I would be wary of training there. Unless you want to be a chi-hugging, bad-shaolin practicing hippie, I would stay away :) For health benefits, sure! What I find most amusing though, is they claim they have so called "internal force" (that internal arts bring). As someone who loves to watch IMA, and practice it, I see no skill in any of their top students/instructors. There is no whole body mechanics (only very rudimentary Shaolin stance movement), no fajin, and hardly any stopping power. For example, that video posted with Kai (against boxing techniques), he blocks a punch while shifting FORWARD, hardly any use of the waist or legs, and then throws palm strikes at boxer..but there is nothing behind them besides a slight shift of weight forward. No fajin, no whole body mechanics at all. Go look at their push hands videos....and compare them to other taiji push hand videos...
Basically what I am saying, is they claim to be holy grail of Shaolin, and even the Internal aspects of it. But even for that..it is not very impressive. If someone could show me proof of their lineage, and what styles/masters they descend from (besides Sifu Ho Fat Nam), that would be great. Thanks
...is THE PENETRATOR
Posted On:7/01/2007 6:48pm
Style: German longsword, .45 ACP
Man, I guess WKK is imploding...years ago, before I was as savvy as I am now about MA, I thought that he might have something, but my positive perceptions promptly exploded when he released videos of his MA classes and it was blatant and utter crap. (i.e., teaching pushing with one hand on someone's face to keep him away as a universal counter to "boxing")
There are also other threads on WKK if you search bullshido.
“nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
Posted On:7/02/2007 5:53pm
Yeah those are definitely the worst, 2nd place is counter to muy thai techniques. Maybe if there was a bit more stick/disolve skills (of IMA), and some whole body power in the counters...It would be less ridiculous. But alas their internal force overcomes all!
Posted On:7/03/2007 4:28pm
Style: chi kung
The majority of their instructors have martial arts backgrounds. Anthony Korahais for instance is a karate 2nd dan, Kai Jettkandt a jujitsu grand master and world champion as well as judo master. Hardly any (if any) had much experience of Wahnam kung fu when they became instructors. Most now have 3 - 8 years experience, hardly enough for any of them to be true kung fu masters.
There is a standard pattern of behaviour in their forum. Anybody who praises another martial art is at first accepted, but very soon informed that their art is low level. This has happened to Kaitan and Sifu Stier. Erle Montaigue was tolerated, but when somebody mentioned that Erle had compared fajing with the natural energy of sneezing, Erle Montaigue was also accused of being a low level practitioner, with little understanding of true fajing or internal energy.
They behave like cult members, rejecting , attacking and banning non-conformists.
I have met and been trained in chi kung by Wong Kiew Kit, and found him to be charming and knowledgeable. I think most of their kung fu students are kidding themselves if they think they would be able to defend themselves, and those who could, are the people like Anthony Korhais and Kai Jettkandt , who have great experience of other arts.
Posted On:7/05/2007 3:32pm
Style: none currently
Could you elaborate on your experiences with WKK? Did you ever see him spar? Do his schools regularly train "with resistance" or are moves mainly practiced in the air or on complient partners? You say WKK was charming... did he make a habit of denigrating other arts or people? If not, one would wonder why all his students seem to do it... Did he ever make rules that seemed "cultish" in that they governed the lives of his students in ways that had absolutely nothing to do with MA? What specifically gave you the impression that WKK is "knowledgeable"?
Posted On:7/05/2007 4:35pm
I have taken part in 1 of WKK's chi kung courses, 3-4 years ago, in the UK. The course was not life changing, but I did get benefit from it. I am more relaxed when I practice martial arts.
I have not seen him spar or taken part in his kung fu or tai chi courses. I have seen some of his instructors and his students sparring. They seemed relaxed, fluent and capable, but certainly no better than mid-grade karate students.
He invited questions about anything relevant to chi kung or martial arts. For instance he said that karate is inferior to Shaolin kung fu because the Chinese masters who taught the Japanese witheld much information. He said that Shaolin kung fu was far superior to western boxing, as a kung master's defense is practically impenetrable and of course they are able touse all p[arts of their body when attacking, not just hands. If you read his question and answers series on his website, you will see that he has a great knowledge of kung fu and martial arts in general.
He believes if you practice Wahnam chi kung, you will be fit and healthy. He does not ask students to behave in any particular way or forbid people to take part in any activity.
If you are not satisfied with his courses you do not have to pay him.
He believes his stle is the best in the world, and other styles are low level in comparison. That is of course very arrogant, but hardly unusual. Ask a Kyokushinkai student what the best style is and he/she will say his/hers.
I would certainly recommed him as a chi kung master. I do not have any contact with Wahnam members, and am quite happy to train on my own. I was a member of the Wahnam forum (under a different name), but do not visit the site now.
I do take exception to the attitude of the forum members though. Wahnam is not a cult, nobody is obliged to pay any money to be a member of the forum, but the members tend to be easily led, in fact easily brainwashed, and are intolerant, offensive and childlike when confronted with people who disagree with their ideals. As a result of their attitude, I no longer use the forum.
Last edited by toom; 7/05/2007 4:43pm at .
Posted On:7/06/2007 4:53pm
Chi gong is really all I would recommend for. And a black belt in another art means nothing. MOST people who go to the internal arts or Shaolin arts were a black belt in some other art before. It is typical of a McDojo to tell others that everything but their system is "low level." I would know, when I was a teenager I went to a McDojo that almost parallels Wahnam. GREAT fitness, great chi gong, lots of power and benefit, but the whole business spectrum, and student mentality was whack (and furthermore not real Shaolin).
If perhaps they were impressive in their sparring, and first of all movement in forms, then maybe everyone would care more. But there is nothing impressive about their movement in forms, nor their sparring. When I asked one of my associates what he thought about their kung fu, I quote "Looks like it comes from a cracker jack box." There is also alot of inaccurate information in his Shaolin Kung Fu book.
I find it funny, how when I went on their forums, they considered everything I knew low-level. I provided completely different, non-chi-hugging forms of thinking, and explaining different opinions. I was considered low-level for this. Yet when some 15 year old "expert" of internal "force" quoted something straight from WKK's book, or a Taichi/Shaolin Classic in general, he was praised.
There is nothing wrong with practicing Chi Gong or putting the word "Shaolin" at the beginning of your name to gain credibility (as everyone does it). But claiming you are superior to everyone else, ridiculing and debasing "outsiders" who have different opinions, and all the other claims (such as WKK Cosmos palm can kill someone with light touch) is a bit sketchy.
Anyways, enough on this subject. Just watch out, do your research well before you practice CMA. Its a circus out there.
Posted On:8/03/2009 9:34am
Sorry to necro this thread, but I thought this was best posted here.
I just found this while searching for something completely unrelated:
It says that Grandmaster Kai Uwe Jettkandt is a Judo master. I couldn't help but notice how extremely poor his throws are in the demonstration videos. There is consistent lack of kuzushi (off-balancing), clumsy tsukuri (fitting in), and kake (execution) is somewhat dubious. By "Judo master", I presume he has (or claims to have) at least a shodan rank. Personally, I have never seen a shodan, or even anyone above 5th kyu (yellow belt) with such poor technique.
So... what the?
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