Kimonophobia

[Pojac]

Although I love training with the gi, I have a hard time to get through my logic infused brain that training more WITH the gi than without will make you that much better no-gi. Instead of training more no-gi to build that skill.

This is how I feel as well. I mean, no, I can't claim to know more about jiu jitsu than Marcelo Garcia, Jacare, Roger, etc., (hell, their pets probably know more than I do), but both logically and intuitively I don't understand the "technical" argument. Gi training may require more technique, but will that really transfer better than the no-gi technique you could have been practicing during that same time?

[Aesopian]

I understand both sides of the gi vs no-gi argument, and so far all the staple debating points have been coming to the table.

On the gi side, we've got: the gi making you more technical; this is because the gi offers more techniques and grips; the gi slows down the game; the gi makes you need to have more technical escapes since you can't just rip out; no-gi is too athletic and slippery; most of the top no-gi competitors have a base in gi and say to train it to help with no-gi.

On the no-gi side, we have: no-gi is just as technical; gi makes you dependent on the gripping fabric; gi competitors have been around longer so they have a stronger base coming into no-gi; the judo versus wrestling analogy; specificity (training for the venue in which you'll compete); anything Eddie Bravo said.

While I see merits and faults of both sides of the debate, I seem to have formed a rare opinion on gi vs no-gi.

Do both.

I could break down my personal thoughts on all of the arguments above to explain why, but I think I can sum up my viewpoint with a new one: I view training gi and no-gi as an issue of altering awareness. Yes, I am painfully aware of how that sounds like fruity New Age talk, but I mean it in a very practical sense so hear me out.

When you are wearing the gi, you have to be aware of different factors than when you are not. Viewed from the other side, not wearing the gi makes you aware of different factors.

I first started moving into this line of thinking after watching Luis Gutierrez's SoFlo DVD. In the introduction to the section on the chin strap, he explains that he came up with the concept for it because he favored a "loop choke" collar grip when rolling gi, and he used this as a base to find a no-gi way of applying the concept. He explains how he feels that the way to gain from gi training is to use it to explore positions and concepts that you might have missed in no-gi without the grips and slower pace, then expanding on these and finding how they apply to no-gi as well.

Viewed like this, the gi is a learning tool, not some magical outfit that makes you "technical" by itself. If you really do just hate the gi so badly that you cannot enjoy wearing it, then I don't think you'll gain anything training in it. But I think that if you can approach it with the right mindset, you can use the gi to improve your awareness and understanding of grappling as a whole, and that this can transfer into no-gi. This is a two-way street though, so I also feel that you should do no-gi in addition to gi for the same core reason of altering awareness.

Drawing from my ever-flowing spring of Matt Thornton quotes:

Not being cloth dependent and not wearing a gi are two very different things. Learning both is the key.

I have competed no-gi, but more so with a gi. So although the past FJKD tapes focused on no-gi, I have always taught and trained both. I feel it's important people train both.

At this point, based on experience over the last few Years, both Tom and I have concluded that people that train with both make MUCH better athletes in terms of technical skill, and depth of knowledge regarding the game.

So just do both.

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Doing both gi and no-gi is obviously the best route. I train, teach, and roll in both every week.

Each game will compliment the other in terms of it's tempo, skills, and technical aspects.

Plus it's just fun. As I am sure you have discovered.

----

By the way, I say this as someone who loves no-gi grappling, and whose no-gi game is honestly far better then my gi game.

I'll tell you a story about this. Last week one of our tougher purple belts came in, and he happens to be someone that I always roll gi with. I teach and roll in both gi and no-gi every week. But some of our students only prefer one, although we ALWAYS encourage them to be brave enough to train in both. For the last Year or so he and I have always rolled in gis. Last week we went no-gi vale tudo for a few rounds, and the standard game we play against each other totaly changed. The pace, tempo, and the subs I used also changed. We both commented on how different and fun it was for the change of pace.

The week prior I rolled with another one of my purple belts who ONLY likes no-gi, and who does whatever possible to avoid bringing or wearing a gi. This time I caught him in a gi, and it was the same thing. Totally different game then we usually play with each other. New routes, new tempo, new subs, new positions. Just a very different game. Things he is normally used to doing where shut down, and he had to improvise by playing in different territory. It was great for his overall game, technique, and mind, as well as for me.

Changing it up with both athletes was great for both them and for me.

Check it out for yourself.

To end with one last Thorntonism:

Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .Do Both. . .it's FUN

[Scrapper]

I went from ten years of gi training to no-gi... and I felt like the retarded kid in class. It took me 6 months to feel like I was comfortable with it.

I may never go back.

[FictionPimp]

I perfer the slower pace of the gi. But I train both, I tipically do 2 or 3 days with the gi and 1 or 2 without. I dont know enough to say what you should or shouldn't be training in, but I perfer the feel and pace of the gi.

[Bang!]

Gumby has done a great job of articulating my thoughts.
More is seldom better
Many of gi's technical elements are non-transferable
"Cheats" such as grips and other non-transferable tricks do not a technical game make

And -- although my man-love for him remains strong -- Yrkoon9's argument (that other good people do it, so you should) just isn't cutting it for me. There are two solid points here, though, so I'll address them:

I like the idea of playing a game that is slower and more physically relaxed in order to develop technical expertise. In fact, applying this to non-compliant partners is probably my top challenge right now. However, the gi is just one tool for developing this game, not the tool.

I am inclined to agree with Aesopian in that one should do everything. Train with gi, train with no gi, roll with smaller guys, roll with bigger guys, roll with crappy guys, roll with good guys. Give yourself arbitrary limitations, let yourself go hog wild . . . And on and on and on. All of these things will broaden your perspective, force you to think creatively and develop novel approaches. BUT . . .

There is a lowest common denominator here, is there not? I use this term in the mathematical sense, not as it applies to fart-centric discussions of tits and/or cocks. With a million techniques out there, there are only so many that actually apply across the board, from sport JJ to MMA to self-defence. For me personally, any digressions are worthwhile, so long as they bring something back to that lowest common denominator. However, there is a big difference between vacationing in those digressions, and living in them IMO.

[pauli]

Although I love training with the gi, I have a hard time to get through my logic infused brain that training more WITH the gi than without will make you that much better no-gi. Instead of training more no-gi to build that skill.

i don't think anybody is suggesting that no gi focused people should spend more time on gi than no gi, but rather that they shouldn't spend all of their time no gi.

personally, i see no reason not to do both. it highlights weaknesses in one's game, and provides food for thought.

[jnp]

I like what Gumby said. He has altered my view, especially the part about training with the gi being a more grip oriented game rather than a more technical one.

Anyone looking to grow as a grappler should train both gi and no-gi IMO. There are somewhat complementary aspects to both types of training. Plus learning to adapt moves back and forth can often go a long way toward deepening your understanding of grappling.

[UpaLumpa]

I disagree that it breaks down to just grips, though they obviously play a role. I can escape submission attempts in no-gi merely due to strength and slipperiness. The same subs by the same people will catch me in a gi due merely to friction. You have to do things right in the gi.

This does translate to no-gi. When going against someone where my strength and sweatiness is insufficient, the technique is there.

[jnp]

I disagree that it breaks down to just grips, though they obviously play a role.

Well hell. I can't seem to get my point across. I didn't mean to imply that the difference could be simplified to grips vs. no grips. All I'm saying is that I agree with Gumby when he says they are a major factor in gi and not as much in no-gi, and that this doesn't necessarily prove that using the gi is a more technical aspect of the grappling.

[Yrkoon9]

I'm Yrkoon the Grappling Man,
I'm Yrkoon the Grappling Man,
I'm strong to the finich
Cause I wear a gi (sometimes).
I'm Yrkoon the Grappling Man.

I'm one tough Gazookus
Which hates all Palookas
Wot ain't on the up and square.
I biffs 'em and buffs 'em
And always out roughs 'em
But none of 'em gets nowhere.

If anyone dares to risk my "Fisk",
It's "Boff" an' it's "Wham" un'erstan'?
So keep "Good Be-hav-or"
That's your one life saver
With Yrkoon the Grappling Man.

I'm Yrkoon the Grappling Man,
I'm Yrkoon the Grappling Man,
I'm strong to the finich
Cause I wear a gi (sometimes).
I'm Yrkoon the Grappling Man.