Kimonophobia

**Bang!** · Posted On: 5/10/2006 10:34pm

"An athlete who wants to be good in no gi must also train with gi."

Remind me why that is again.

**Phrost** · Posted On: 5/10/2006 10:42pm

As someone who does almost no gi training, I'd guess that it would make you more technical, more aware (offensively and defensively) of grips, and improve your hand/forearm strength, to name a few.

**Emevas** · Posted On: 5/10/2006 10:49pm

When you train gi, you actually have to use technique to escape. You can't just rely on sweat and being slippery. You also have to contend with all sorts of grips and **** like Phrost was talking about.

I've never trained gi, but I've heard the transition from gi to no gi is much smoother than the other way around.

***jnp*** · Posted On: 5/10/2006 11:00pm

When the grapplers are experienced, the gi often slows down the game by an order of magnitude. It's easy to secure your position by grabbing onto your opponents sleeve, pant leg, belt, collar etc. and hold him there. These 'handholds' also provide a more technical dimension to the game. You have many more points on your opponents body to manipulate with the handy dandy gi. I can't grab and hold onto my opponents waist in no-gi n the same manner as gi.

For example: My preferred pass when using the gi is a low and slow type of pass. I move slowly, grabbing and securing some portion of the gi as I pass in an incremental fashion.

In no-gi, I favor speed oriented, athletic passes. This is mostly because there's no clothing to grab as I pass and arms, ankles, hips and knees are notoriously hard to keep a grip on when both competitors are sweaty.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 5/10/2006 11:11pm

I'm at a place right now where I'm just starting to try to slow my opponent to a standstill while I do whatever I'm going to do. In a perfect world, they'd be like a venom-filled rodent whose horror is just palpable through their paralysis, as I slowly coil around their neck. Well, I fucking wish, anyway.

In any case, this is something that I want to achieve sans-gi. I understand the complications that this brings to the table, but fail to see how the tools I need to do this will somehow be enhanced by gi training.

Check that. I see how I could benefit from watching a slower version of my own game play out, but think that there are more creative ways to do this than by putting on pyjamas.

**Yrkoon9** · Posted On: 5/10/2006 11:38pm

Originally Posted by Repulsive Monkey

"An athlete who wants to be good in no gi must also train with gi."

Remind me why that is again.

Do not question this man. Ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hFHo...rcelo%20garcia

Oh and considering the best no-gi guys also train with the gi they might be onto something. Roger. Garcia. Jacare. Just a few examples. And they all say the same thing.

**Gumby** · Posted On: 5/11/2006 12:24am

I dont think that theres any magical element related to the gi in terms of its technique.

For example, people often say that training with the gi offers more techniques, therefore it is more technical, but lets not forget Carlson Gracie who said "you know 1000 techniques, but you arent good at any of them!" What this means is that he (and most others) preferred quality of techniques over quantity of techniques. According to this, just because the gi has more techniques does not neccessarily mean its more or less technical.

I personally believe that there is more techique to be had in no gi- afterall, I've fought many jiu jitsu fighters with gi who have grips from hell- you simply can not break them, and they are so adept at using it to control you. In no gi, on the other hand, there is much more hip positioning involved and these same fighters were not able to thwart my game simply by holding. Most of the time I submit people who are ranked higher than me its in no gi, and its by the same traditional armbar/triangle/RNC methods (so Im not getting them with a cheap ass footlock).

To add to that, there isnt a single thing that you can do with the gi FOR NO GI TRAINING that can not be done by strictly doing no gi training. How does training an armbar with a gi make your armbar in no gi more technical? You can argue that people often use more strength in no gi, but that doesnt mean I cant still train with technique. The gi by itself does not make you a more or less technical fighter.

Now, as to why all the top guys train with the gi, well lets just say that Abu Dhabi is a relatively young event. When everyone initially wanted to learn BJJ, they went to the Gracies who told them this whole magic gi theory. As a result, only within the past few years have people begun to train exclusively without the gi for the strict purpose of no gi fighting.

To use one of Eddie Bravo's analogies, lets compare Judo with Wrestling. Now, the vast majority of people who either train or watch MMA advocate that wrestling is a much better art for takedowns than is judo. This is not to say that judo isnt good or cant be used in mma, but whenever you ask someone why wrestling is better its often the same answer- wrestlers dont train with a gi, judokas do, and mma is a no gi sport. How can something like judo be dismissed over wrestling because of the gi and something like jiu jitsu held in higher esteem than submission wrestling because of the gi?

So, with all that being said, I propose my theory- why is it that all these guys who happen to be the best also happen to be gi fighters? Why did the BJJ guys defeat all the shooto/catch guys, even though BJJ had no footlocks and fought with a gi. Here is the magical method of the gi- training with the gi is not as tiring as training without the gi and as a result, fighters who train with the gi are able to get more quality time put into their grappling sessions than their no gi counterparts. I do both gi and no gi, and while both are extremely tiring, I will say that 30 minutes of hardcore no gi fighting will require more energy and make you more tired than 30 minutes of gi training, for the simply fact that when you decide to hold your opponent with the gi so you can rest, you have handles that allow you to. Something that we've seen in grappling is that it takes an incredibly long period of time to get proficient at, because it demands so much devotion to training. I believe that training with the gi makes you less tired than training without, which in turn allows for people to train more often and get more experience in their respective techniques.

Becoming overly reliant in either sports aspect will affect your other game (i.e. if you only know collar chokes, your no gi game wont be so slick, and if you can only do guillotines and footlocks, it'll be hard to be competitive at the gi level).

This is my theory which I've thought over for a bit- poke a few holes in it and lets see what happens. I used to believe the same thing, that the gi would somehow make you a more technical and elite level fighter- I even criticized Bravo for what he said. I eventually decided to think about this in a very subjective way. If you want to argue that the gi makes you more technical in no gi, fine, but offer me some evidence other than "its what the best guys do."

And for the record, I only train no gi about 25-30% of the time.

**Jitsuman** · Posted On: 5/11/2006 12:31am

was that the famed reverse omoplata towards the end of the Garcia clip?

I do believe it was.

sweetness.

**fanatical** · Posted On: 5/11/2006 6:18am

Although I love training with the gi, I have a hard time to get through my logic infused brain that training more WITH the gi than without will make you that much better no-gi. Instead of training more no-gi to build that skill.