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  1. #51
    The gift that keeps on giving supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arahoushi
    SFE -- I can't claim credit for that.

    Don't thank me. Thank Cory Juhl and Bryan Register at UT Austin. They taught me my religious philosophy.
    Thanks to them then, I still feel dumb, lol!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arahoushi
    Thus, while "yesterday was May 10th" is true for us, it's NOT true for God since for God the concept of "yesterday" is incoherent, since God doesn't notice the changing of time since he is present at every when.
    I've thought about something like this in the past, came from the Holy Trinity thing.

    I've always thought of the Holy Spirit as being our existence. Like you wrote in the quote above, this would be that the universe is in fact made from/is God (He created it out of himself, if we go by the idea that "something cannot come from nothing" idea) so he is every moment that could ever be (past, present and future).

    Just some random ass stuff floating around in my head a few years ago.

    Curious to what you think. Feel free to make me feel dumb by your own accord if it is warranted.

  2. #52
    Shaolinz's Avatar
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    Actually I just graduated from Texas Tech, psychology major/philosophy minor. As for the May 10th problem thats not entirely a paradox, for the God outside of time scenario. If God exists outside of time then a relative statement of that sort would not have a T/F answer. How can a being that exists equally throughout time answer a question of, "What day is it?". The answer to the question is relative to your position in time. Which you more or less address anyway. (because of my previous automaton arguement I tend to hold God's omniscience to "objective" knowledge only)

    It should also be noted that I hold some very ... odd views on things. I tend to have a deterministic view, believe Free Will is an illusion at best, and that the only true knowledge is skill or practical knowledge. However, thats not necessary for this thread. ;)

    Personally, I think the idea of God is funny because its one of the few things that has been simply defined into existance. However, its a fun philosophical excercise. Ontological arguements for God make baby jesus cry...
    Last edited by Shaolinz; 5/11/2006 12:49am at .

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sfe
    I've thought about something like this in the past, came from the Holy Trinity thing.

    I've always thought of the Holy Spirit as being our existence. Like you wrote in the quote above, this would be that the universe is in fact made from/is God (He created it out of himself, if we go by the idea that "something cannot come from nothing" idea) so he is every moment that could ever be (past, present and future).
    The Holy Trinity and logic don't work very well.

    1. God is one being.
    2. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each distinct of the others.
    3. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy spirit is God.

    1 substance that is 3 distinct substances

    Father = Son = Holy Spirit = God

    BUT

    Father != Son != Holy Spirit

    Logically impossible

    Edit: != means 'not equal'

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolinz
    The Holy Trinity and logic don't work very well.

    1. God is one being.
    2. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each distinct of the others.
    3. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy spirit is God.

    1 substance that is 3 distinct substances

    Father = Son = Holy Spirit = God

    BUT

    Father != Son != Holy Spirit

    Logically impossible

    Edit: != means 'not equal'
    I was meaning that the Holy Spirit is the "include all" thing of the trinity.

    God is the "brain", Jesus is his human son and that the Holy Spirit is the body of God that we live in (including Jesus).

    Sorry, I'm not trying to make this an overly religious thread. I was just curious about some stuff.

    We really should get back onto track.

    The banana might also be interpreted as a good reason why women don't need men at all (ridge's be damned, or not?).

    Oh, and that sucks.

  5. #55
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    Shaolinz -- I grew up in the area around Lubbock. You have my condolences. Half my high school went to Tech, so I'm sure you bumped into a few of my old friends.

    SFE -- the view you describe (where God is everything and everything came from God) is called panentheism (not pantheism, panENtheism). God is both everything and a transcendent being above everything.

    Most Trinitarians take the view that the Holy Spirit is the presence and power of God that pervades everything in the wake of Jesus' victory over Satan during the Resurrection.

    Personally, I don't believe in panentheism as a general rule, because I'm an atheist. I think it does solve the cosmological problem of where everything came from, and it does place God "outside of time," or at least at every possible point, but I do think we have to, on an absolute scale, divide time even for God. Because God existing at this point has to have future knowledge and past knowledge to avoid the paradocies I quoted above.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arahoushi
    SFE -- the view you describe (where God is everything and everything came from God) is called panentheism (not pantheism, panENtheism). God is both everything and a transcendent being above everything.

    Most Trinitarians take the view that the Holy Spirit is the presence and power of God that pervades everything in the wake of Jesus' victory over Satan during the Resurrection.

    Personally, I don't believe in panentheism as a general rule, because I'm an atheist. I think it does solve the cosmological problem of where everything came from, and it does place God "outside of time," or at least at every possible point, but I do think we have to, on an absolute scale, divide time even for God. Because God existing at this point has to have future knowledge and past knowledge to avoid the paradocies I quoted above.
    Very interesting. Thanks!

  7. #57
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    Ah hell . . . I should stay away from this.

    In an argument long ago I demonstrated the if a god, or gods, exist he must be Evil, Incompetent, Irrelevant, or Some Combination of Those.

    Why I am not popular on religous boards.

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  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arahoushi
    Any time people bring up questions out theological impossibilities regarding God I end up defending God, and I'm an atheist.

    Of course, I also disbelieve in free will, so perhaps I'm just determined to do so.
    I do that too! I had a lengthy argument with a pair of Jehovva Witnesses where I heavily criticised their "God of the Gaps" argument for God's existance as demeaning to his nature and profundity.

    I think I confused them early on by calling Dawkins and idiot and fanatic, I think they thought they were on to a good thing. However by the end of it all I hadn't been onverted and they hadn't renounced their faith so I consider it a no score draw, I did start getting angry though when thy started pulling out thier irreducible complexity bullshit. Fuking hate that.

  9. #59
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    You guys

    He's god.

    he can poop all over your big thoughts

    The ablitity to transcend logic and rhetoric and just do whatever is what makes him god.

    God can divide by zero, screw white women and not get arrested, get record execs to stop churning out ****, whatever he wants - that's why he's the motherfucking Lord.

    I guarentee that if any of you met god and tried to tie him up with some logical bullshit, ie "Can you make a rock so big you can't lift it?" He'd be like, "Yeah sure, and then I can create a race of dumb monkeys and wait five million years for them to scurry all over the rock and invent bombs and blow it to ****, then sweep the pieces up."

    Seriously - he's god. To make all these logical arguments, you have to ascribe limitations to him he is not likely to posses.

    You can't evalute a creature that created your logical framework, until you are aware of the entire boundry of that framework and have forumlated a good hypothosis about what is without it, as he almost has to exist outside it.

    Consider a race of two dimensional creatures created in a lab. They are 2d discs the size of dimes. They live in a force field 8 feet by 2 feet and move in only two axis. The interact using a physical alphabet - a sign language consisting of 2d movements. You made them, with science. In your lab. Nice work. That must have taken some motherfucking math, dude.

    Now, you know their language - you caused it to come about within them - and you can speak it. To do so, you stick your hand through the plane they live in and talk to them with your wrist. The only thing you have to be aware of is that this dimples the field, and if if you move your hand to fast, nearby life forms will slide down the resultant funnel and get squished. Sometimes you risk it, because they can all feel your wrist from quite a ways away, but sometimes you need to speak to a little crowd of them, so you use just the tip of a finger.

    You think of yourself as a scientist and an evolved ape, whatever. You have an accurate picture of yourself, is the point.

    Now they think of you as five beings of slightly greater magnitude then themsleves that burst inexplicably into existance and can travel both the Narrow and the Long with far greater velocity then any Disker. These are the Heralds that Come from Without. The Heralds then Merge to Become the True Form of the Maker - a form like we Diskers, but vaster by ten times or more!. Where the Maker reveals himself, his Motions are as a Flame and his Voice does call Us to Our Death, so only our Bravest Makerspeakers dare approach to Hear his Revelation and they are often Driven Most Madde by the Nearness of His Vastness and the Strange wayes His Words do Bend our Worlyd.

    Sometymes, that His Words might be revealed in a Way that his Might doth not quash our life foryce and twist our hole Woryld with His Passing, he doth sendeth his Envoy, a being like a single harbinger, that appears among Diskerkind and spreadth Word of the Maker in a way that the Maker's Roar might not twist us in Painful Ways.

    That's god, compared to us.


  10. #60
    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    You guys

    He's god [...] That's god, compared to us.
    Yes, made-up omnipotent and omniscient deities aren't your average topic for rational debate. I said a very similar thing to Mega Jesus-San here.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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