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  1. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:32pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    "Martial" doesn't mean fighting. It means "of, or pertaining to war; war like" (in this context, anyway).

    Didn't we just go over this right here a few minutes ago? And, am I the only one with a dictionary?

    :smile:
    Are you the only one who refuses to accept that the defining feature of war is violence?

    We're not talking about the "War on Illiteracy" or any other figurative use of the word "war" either. We're talking about fighting and killing. That's what Martial means.

    You're playing semantic games and not only is it completely transparent, but it's extremely irritating. Have some intellectual integrity for ****'s sake. The only thing your attempts at blurring the lines are accomplishing is making you look like a douche.
  2. MMA_Phil is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:45pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ""Martial" doesn't mean fighting. It means "of, or pertaining to war; war like" (in this context, anyway).

    Didn't we just go over this right here a few minutes ago? And, am I the only one with a dictionary?"

    Lol, I know that. I just didn't think that people would be happy to see their MA as an inapplicable war dances. Or maybe they see all war dances as actually full of secret deadly techniques and so war dances are applicable anyway.

    Well, I don't know what people think their MA's are about, but war has never been about spirituality, character development, raising one's fitness....? So in what way are MA's "warlike" other than being like war dances?

    I think I'm actually starting to get disillusioned with trying to disillusion people. I need to go and read something depressing.
  3. porch is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:45pm


     Style: kb, tapping, jjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I totally agree with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    I don't think we can say "martial arts is about _____" and try to apply it to everyone who does MA and then label them as we see fit. I think we can only say "martial arts is about _____" for ourselves individually, because it is a question of purpose. For me, martial arts is about fighting... but to impose that on a meditating Tai Chier is just plain ridiculous because its my purpose, not his.

    It's like saying "swimming is all about rescuing people who are drowning." That's obvious bullshit, just ask Michael Phelps.

    So with that perspective in mind, my definition of bullshido is anyone who claims to be doing MA with a certain purpose, and then not actually training like it, or doing something else with it. If a Tai Chier says they are learning it for holistic meditiation I say ok that's cool have fun with that. If a Tai Chier says they are learning it as a comprehensive form of self defense and how they are going to be the next ultimate grand eternal fighter of the world without resistance training or cross training, then I'd raise the bullshido flags.
    You can impose meaning on any activity that you undertake. One garbageman might not care about his job besides the paycheque. Another might get some satisfaction out of getting paid for providing a usefull service for the community. Yet another could find an opportunity for some kind of self actualization through discipline and devotion to his job. Which one knows the "true" purpose of garbage collection?
  4. Devil is offline
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:51pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by porch
    I totally agree with this:


    You can impose meaning on any activity that you undertake. One garbageman might not care about his job besides the paycheque. Another might get some satisfaction out of getting paid for providing a usefull service for the community. Yet another could find an opportunity for some kind of self actualization through discipline and devotion to his job. Which one knows the "true" purpose of garbage collection?
    No matter what the garbageman feels about his profession, his purpose is hauling away empty beer cans and shitty diapers.

    *Random fact for those who don't know - The word "martial" comes from the Roman god of war, Mars.
  5. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:53pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by porch
    I totally agree with this:


    You can impose meaning on any activity that you undertake. One garbageman might not care about his job besides the paycheque. Another might get some satisfaction out of getting paid for providing a usefull service for the community. Yet another could find an opportunity for some kind of self actualization through discipline and devotion to his job. Which one knows the "true" purpose of garbage collection?
    Please. They are there becasue someone pays them to remove trash. Any benifits to them other than "money for services rendered" are inconsequential to the original goal.
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  6. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:56pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two questions for the martial arts is more than fighting crowd...

    Is boxing a martial art? If you remove 'fighting' from boxing, you have calisthenics. Are calisthenics a martial art?
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 3:58pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    Have some intellectual integrity for ****'s sake.

    Why?





    Sheesh Phrost, calm down. It's Friday. Let your hair down. This is the YMAS forum, after all. :smile:


    All I'm saying there is fighting, and then there is fighting. You like to call LARPers the people who dress up in medieval armor and have a melee or ride horses and joust. That's fine, I don't have a problem with that.

    Taking the definitions for "martial" and "art" separately does not define "martial art" any more than than doing the same for "civil war", "defensive strike", or "jumbo shrimp". The terms have to be taken together to make better sense. And, they need the proper context. (which, btw, as I agreed with you in a previous post, is fighting).


    I'm not arguing semantics. I am arguing context. Two spazzed out hookers strung out on crack who never had a day of training in their life can have a go at it. It can even get pretty gruesome, especially if weapons are involved. That's fighting - one type of fighting. But that's not Martial Arts (IMHO), that's just a fight - and probably a dumb LARP one at that.


    Semantics are not at issue, only the context of what is a fight. Now you can be annoyed and accuse me being intellectually dishonest. But the term "martial art" is not only in the OED but in the encyclofuckingpedia. That's what it is. Tough! We don't get to change it. But, what a small rag tag team of Internet Toreadors gets to do is try to remind people of the context of that definition. It is the connotation, not the denotation which is what should be at issue.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 5/05/2006 4:02pm at . Reason: spelling
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. Lucky Seven is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 5:34pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Martial arts are about fighting thats for sure, but I don't think that the term defines well what we call martial arts.

    I'm not even talking about ki wielding folk or nothing like that, even if you take muay thai boxing, judo, jiu jitsu, or even more ancient forms of "martial arts" I seriosly doubt they where even used in actual WAR as the term martial implies.

    Humans have ben using weapons and armour for thousands of years now, every war was fought with them, not with hand to hand techniques, so maybe calling a hand to hand combat system as martial art is a wrong use of semanthics ?

    Eventualy a soldier would have the need to engage the enemy without a weapon, to gain space to pick it up, to draw it or for some other reason, but even if this is true you ain't using a reverse omoplata during battle.
  9. porch is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 5:36pm


     Style: kb, tapping, jjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateJon
    Please. They are there becasue someone pays them to remove trash. Any benifits to them other than "money for services rendered" are inconsequential to the original goal.
    I probably shouldn't have ended my post with a rhetorical question. My answer to the question would be that there is no "true spirit" of garbage collection. I thought the proposal alone would be absurd enough that I could leave it at that.

    Analyzing someone's results based on their goals is a more usefull approach to calling bullshido than arguing over an exact defeinition of "martial art".
  10. MMA_Phil is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 6:50pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess it's all down to semantics, and this is why I always try to distance myself from the term martial arts. The only problem is that the alternatives make you sound like you are a street criminal (sport fighting etc.).

    Not that this is an argument, this is just popular perception:
    1) People that study martial arts can have a fight.
    2) Martial arts - whilst they may indeed incorporate mind and body stuff - ultimately are about fighting.

    You could, of course, argue that these are misconceptions. But, if you were talking to a stranger in a pub (or something) and they starting giving you respect for your MA knowledge, there is no way that you would say "well actually, my martial art isn't about fighting and isn't really that practical."

    The bottom line is that all of the people here claiming that MA isn't majorly about fighting skill, I wonder if that's what they tell people that don't know any better? The kind of people they can impress?
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