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  1. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 12:07pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Sad, but true- TMAs will never die

    I had hoped that through combining logic, common sense and friendly gong sao, I could play my part in killing off TMAs....

    However, thinking about it, it's not going to happen.

    The "We train for the street" argument is so perfectly constructed to appeal to those who are susceptible....and those who are susceptible always get drawn into TMAs.

    If we think about it:

    Let's say Billy Bob trains for 2 years in Wing Chun. All the time he is fed the line of training for the street and not the ring. Bob originally started so he could defend himself more effectively. Fair enough.
    But now he thinks that he is equipped to deal with multiple attacker scenarios and knife wielding maniacs. All thanks to the drills and scenario based training he does in class.
    Unfortunately, Billy Bob gets attacked one day and is beaten badly. It was a surprise attack as he stepped out of the pub. The attacker, Archibald, was not happy with the way that Billy Bob looked at him.
    He punched him and jumped on his back. Billy Bob tried to free his hands, and he succeeded. He hit Archibald with a palm strike to the nuts. Archie winced but continued grappling with Billy Bob, clinching and getting him to the ground, where he got his faced pounded and he flapped around like a dying fish.

    Billy Bob, naturally, has a crisis of confidence. He doesn't go training for 2 weeks. Once the bruises have healed, he decided to return, though he's unsure of his future in Wing Chun.
    He explains to his instructor, Sifu Terrence, what happened.
    Terrence sympathises. He tells Billy Bob that it was a surprise attack and there was little he could do about it except train harder. But he also adds that in future, if it happens again, he should wrench Archibald's nuts, instead of just palm striking them. If he does this, then Archibald will definitely let go, and Billy Bob will live to fight another day.
    Billy Bob is relieved. No one would have had a chance in such a situation! Especially not those MMA guys who always train so that they can see their attacker before they get attacked.
    But now, he is more prepared than ever...

    Billy Bob heads off to the pub to celebrate one night. Wing Chun is going well again. He's learned a few more scenarios and feels he is well equipped to deal with life's troubles. Also, he's going to start learning the wooden dummy form soon. He's achieved a state of well being, and is comfortable in his life. At the same time, he thinks he's a pretty good fighter now. He can take on 5 guys at once in his Wing Chun class- watch out world.
    After a few too many, Billy Bob is a little...over excited. He starts getting aggressive with a bunch of guys out for a good time. The drink and over-confidence have made Billy Bob a danger to himself.
    The guys try to get rid of him nicely. But he keeps on going for it, and is eventually ejected by a bouncer for causing a stir. Billy Bob falls asleep on a bench outside.

    The blokes from inside have been drinking even more and are also getting aggressive. The bouncer is in for a joyous night as he is forced to eject the two rowdiest- Cuthbert and Reginald.
    Stumbling out of the pub, they see Billy Bob on the bench and start hurling insults. Billy Bob rouses from his slumber, which involved an interesting dream concerning wooden dummies, flying darts and prevent takedowns with elbow strikes to the spine.
    Bob ignores them and tries to stumble out of trouble. But he's ambushed again! Cuthbert bear hugs Bob from behind and lifts him off the ground. Meanwhile Reginald is about to join in on his hapless foe.
    However, Billy Bob has a trick up his sleeve! He frees his hands, and palm strikes Mr Happy Cuthbert...but he doesn't stop there! He wrenches and twists. Cuthbert's Mr Happy is no longer happy. This hurts a bit. Luckily for Billy Bob, Cuthbert lets go. Billy Bob's scenarios and siu nim tao have saved him again! He turns to finish off Cuthbert-as he has been taught. However, unfortunately for Billy Bob, Cuthbert only let go so that he could punch Billy Bob in the face. Which he does. Multiple times. Billy Bob has never seen such a scenario! A man, toe to toe with him, throwing multiple punches from all angles. Billy Bob tries to tan sao a hook on the inside, but he's too slow and catches one in the face! Stumbling back, he takes several uppercuts and falls down, he is mounted and smashed to pieces again. This time, Billy Bob is hospitalised! Reginald never had to do anything.

    After a night in hospital, Billy Bob is released. A bit of an ugly sight, it must be said. And his mother always said she would love him no matter what!

    Billy Bob takes a long time off training. However, he really thinks that just a few more scenarios and he'll be streetfight ready.
    He returns, and tells Terrence the whole story again.
    More sympathy.
    However, Terrence informs him that he should not have let go of Cuthbert's Mr Happy and friends. If he had held him there, Cuthbert would have collapsed in pain- leaving Archibald to be the next victim.
    In additon, Terrence re-iterates that multiple attacker scenarios are difficult to deal with, and he needs to keep on training so that he can become really effective.

    Billy Bob is not as enthusiastic as before. However, he is somewhat re-assured. He really needs to train hard for many years, and then he'll know all the scenarios and be good at them too.

    However, Billy Bob is dragged along by a friend to a local Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school. He's basically going for a favour. What a drag! Seeing grown men writhe about on the floor looks awfully gay to Billy Bob! And where are their scenarios? Double leg takedowns?! HA! Why would you want to go to ground if someone is about to kick your head in! "No thanks!" says Billy Bob. "I think I'll learn more scenarios in Wing Chun. And, my chi sao is getting really good. Once I've learned the wooden dummy form I'll know how to stop ALL the punches Cuthbert threw at me!".

    Billy Bob returns to Wing Chun and enjoys the rest of his life in "peace"......








    -------------


    OK, that is bloody exagerated. I know.

    But my point is fairly simple....

    They claim to prepare you for the street. Now, I was thinking, how can you prove that this is bullshit? You will never convince them of anything by sparring, because that's not what they "train for".
    So you would have to wait for them to get attacked on the street, and lose. The problem is that they would delude themselves, or others would delude them, into thinking that
    a) "It was an impossible situation to deal with, and that we are STILL much better prepared for it than those MMA guys!"
    or
    b) "You just need to train more/harder and you will be able to deal with it next time."

    So they never find out that the basic premise behind their training is horribly flawed. In particular, they think that "sport" fighting would just encourage them to "engage" rather than "disengage", and that would not be realistic!
    And, if they were to check out another school, that's when the lies and delusions kick in. x years of training in a dead art is hard to put behind you....so the mind creates its comfort blanket and convinces you that even though you lost of the street- these guys would lose even worse!

    Unfortunately, there will always be people with this mindset. And we can never prove anything to enough of them! They WILL have an answer to every situation, and why they should stick with their current art. It's that comfort blanket of lies, deciet and ego again.
    And those that do leave, just get replaced by more.

    The truth hurts, and reality is horrible. :boxing:
  2. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 12:11pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank God TMA's like BJJ, Judo, and Muay Thai will never die.
  3. TheSparrow is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 12:11pm


     Style: Shutting up and training

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    Thank God TMA's like BJJ, Judo, and Muay Thai will never die.
    Sorry, my definition of TMA is "Martial Art that is ****".
  4. Shawarma is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 12:28pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Get a new name for it then, because your definition of TMA is ****.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 12:52pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TheSparrow
    Sorry, my definition of TMA is "Martial Art that is ****".
    Which is very similar to my definition of your thought process.
  6. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 12:53pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tl;ts;dr
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. Mr.Mundane is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 6:29pm


     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sparrow, is your name Billy Bob?
  8. Fearless Ukemi is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 6:43pm


     Style: JJ of the B variety

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    >>
    The "We train for the street" argument is so perfectly constructed to appeal to those who are susceptible....and those who are susceptible always get drawn into TMAs.
    >>

    That and a lot of people actually want to be doing bullcrap.
  9. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 7:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is the only way to convince them to beat up their instructor in a a street fight? Just make sure that you're about the same height and weight and sex, then there's no 'you're a big macho thug' response. Wouldn't this leave the 'T3h S7r337' taken care of, plus the 'You just have to get better' line?
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
    click here to order on Amazon

  10. I aint punchy!? is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 10:21pm


     Style: Arnis, WC, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree that most RBSD are just LARP with a sales pitch of 'learn confidence, fitness and self-defense!'

    But...

    In all the WC I've ever done I've never done a 'scenario' and never practiced a nuts grab. I wont bother going on about people I know who have fought multiple attackers successfully because a) it proves nothing, b) no video (obviously).

    Palm strikes can be punches or grabs, or they can be a way of defending yourself against someone without going to jail.

    PS: I have punched someone in the nuts during a fight and it incapacitated them for around 10 seconds, during which I just stood there dumbly wondering what I should do
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