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  1. danno is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 5:00am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    gun control? yep. australia's gun laws are about as tight as it gets. in my opinion no one should have a gun unless they need it for their job or are shooting clay pigeons, and i don't believe in using guns for self defense. which just happens to be how things work here.

    btw, did you know that when pigeon shooting was first in the olympics they used real pigeons for the competition?
  2. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 6:34am

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     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I did quite a bit of sport shooting when I was younger, and I agree. If people want military weapons, they can join the military. We have very tight gun laws, and very few gun deaths - I'm happy to keep both just they way they are.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  3. Antifa is offline
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    Sin Dios! Sin amos!

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 8:32am

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     Style: Starting Over... Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcHarHar
    "From what I've heard, I love it. A Neutral Pacifist nation with a automatic rifle-eqipped citizen militia. Riding Bicycles."

    Not everybody in the swiss army rides bicycles. In fact, i'm not even sure the bycicle troops still exist, because there was a huge army reform, where they changed a lot. For example at the time when i was doing my basic military service, everybody that aspired for a military carreer had to do the exact same basic military service (15weeks) . Nowadays, aspirants for officer get separated after a few weeks (i think its 6 weeks or so). However it is still the case that we have to join the army every year for three weeks (repetition course, swiss slang "WK").

    Because I'm a full time student, so far I haven't done any of these repetition courses, i always claimed that i have examinations to do (which was true in fact) . Yet even in that case, the army expect you to go to an official shooting range and attend the "Bundesprogramm" (20 rounds on 300m =approx 300yd) .
    Actually I do not have any problems with that, because it needs just a morning, and it ensures that i still know how to assemble my rifle, fire it and clean it.

    From the gun control perspective, with these military weapons, the crime rate is quite low, which is not so amazing, because the serial number of your personal weapon is registered in your service booklet, and the people owning these rifles (like me) usually don't even want to own them. (if I had been given the option of not joining the army, I wouldn't have joined it)
    What occasionally (maybe once every second/third year) happens is what the media call "extended suicide", meaning a family father that has lost Job/house/... and is so desperate that he shoots his kids, his wife and himself. Usually the left parties and the media then start a discussion why keeping military weapons at home is bad. Then again a lot of these extended suicides are done without any firearm, for example there was one guy who killed his kids with a hammer.
    (So my personal opinion is that guns do not make a society safer, but also they are not responsible for a violent society.)

    From the very often discussed "home defense" perspective, I think these rifles are worth ****. First of all the Stgw 90 (SIG 550) with one or two loaded clips is about 9 pounds heavy. When fired FA, a clip does not even hold for 2 seconds and the recoil is immense, so i think I would use it semi auto or in burst mode.
    In the end, inside a room, i think with a good 9mm you would hit more, and be more flexible etc. This is one of the reasons why i do keep it in little parts, each one stored at a different point. The other one is that opening the emergency ammo without a reason is punished as a severe crime.

    The gun laws for normal private gun ownership in switzerland were usually also less restrictive than in other parts of europe (I think you could sell your gun to your friend without registering), but they recently changed that due to pressure from the european union i think.

    I hope i didnt bore you too much...

    What about carrying concealed?
  4. Antifa is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 8:35am

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     Style: Starting Over... Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jubei33
    How could you possibly have 'direct community control' under those circumstances?

    People democratically make a social contract about how they want their neighboorhood or village to work. Descision making format based on a new england style town meeting
  5. MrMcHarHar is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 9:09am


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As far as I know you need a special license for carrying concealed (or carrying in general) handguns, which usually you only get if you can argue that you are severely endangered, so i think only professional security people can carry guns. Door people in front of clubs etc. usually do not carry firearms as far as I know.

    As for the service weapons, you usually see soldiers carrying them around in trains/public transportation, because the army can not build enough parking lots for the soldiers. So it emphasizes the use of public transportation. The rifles they carry however do not contain any ammo, which is also controlled. If the rifle is still armed, the person violates the general ammunition order which is also a severe crime.

    Plus, there is the possibility to disable the burst and auto mode of the rifle, in that case, there is a visible white dot next to the fire selector. Should you ever travel in a swiss train/ visit a 300m shooting range in switzerland (no auto fire there!) , and you see somebody without the white dot, gently remind him he should put in the white dot.
  6. Antifa is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 11:32am

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     Style: Starting Over... Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcHarHar
    As far as I know you need a special license for carrying concealed (or carrying in general) handguns, which usually you only get if you can argue that you are severely endangered, so i think only professional security people can carry guns. Door people in front of clubs etc. usually do not carry firearms as far as I know.

    As for the service weapons, you usually see soldiers carrying them around in trains/public transportation, because the army can not build enough parking lots for the soldiers. So it emphasizes the use of public transportation. The rifles they carry however do not contain any ammo, which is also controlled. If the rifle is still armed, the person violates the general ammunition order which is also a severe crime.

    Plus, there is the possibility to disable the burst and auto mode of the rifle, in that case, there is a visible white dot next to the fire selector. Should you ever travel in a swiss train/ visit a 300m shooting range in switzerland (no auto fire there!) , and you see somebody without the white dot, gently remind him he should put in the white dot.

    So you all do have alot of gun control after all?
  7. MrMcHarHar is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 12:34pm


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In one word: yes. Just because my country trusts me with a rifle, it does not trust blindly.

    By the way, I found out that people willing to carry (armed) guns in my country as private persons (includes professionals like body guards etc.) have to pass a test first, which includes some law issues on self-defense and also real shooting test. I feel much safer now.

    On the other side if you want to sell your weapon to a friend, you really only need a written agreement and there is no messing with the governement.
    Last edited by MrMcHarHar; 4/30/2006 12:42pm at .
  8. Antifa is offline
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    Sin Dios! Sin amos!

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 1:15pm

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     Style: Starting Over... Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcHarHar
    In one word: yes. Just because my country trusts me with a rifle, it does not trust blindly.

    By the way, I found out that people willing to carry (armed) guns in my country as private persons (includes professionals like body guards etc.) have to pass a test first, which includes some law issues on self-defense and also real shooting test. I feel much safer now.

    On the other side if you want to sell your weapon to a friend, you really only need a written agreement and there is no messing with the governement.
    So the only place where you are supieror to the USA is that the gvt issues you rifles that are full auto?

    what are your import laws and laws on the purchase of non-regulation full auto rifles?
  9. MrMcHarHar is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 3:13pm


     Style: Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think there are some collectors owning full auto rifles, but either they have been converted to semi auto, or they have to deposit the "Verschluss" (sorry I don't know the english word, its the part that seals the round into the barrel, when it loads) at the police. So I think there is no way of legally owning an operating FA gun in switzerland, apart from being a soldier.
    Once you leave the army when you have attended enough days of service (nowadays when you are thirty something), you can still keep your personal rifle, but they change the mechanism so its not FA anymore.
    So yes in the end you really have less restrictive gun laws in the US, even though there are about 100'000-200'000 FA rifles distributed among swiss homes...
  10. Antifa is offline
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    Sin Dios! Sin amos!

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    Posted On:
    4/30/2006 3:51pm

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     Style: Starting Over... Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMcHarHar
    I think there are some collectors owning full auto rifles, but either they have been converted to semi auto, or they have to deposit the "Verschluss" (sorry I don't know the english word, its the part that seals the round into the barrel, when it loads) at the police. So I think there is no way of legally owning an operating FA gun in switzerland, apart from being a soldier.
    Once you leave the army when you have attended enough days of service (nowadays when you are thirty something), you can still keep your personal rifle, but they change the mechanism so its not FA anymore.
    So yes in the end you really have less restrictive gun laws in the US, even though there are about 100'000-200'000 FA rifles distributed among swiss homes...

    Thanks for the help and explainations.
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