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  1. Shawarma is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 2:31pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Shawarma:


    People who believe that (and believe that it would be some kind of trump
    Disagree. The basic purpose of firearms is inflicting harm on others. Target shooting is simulating inflicting harm on others. Hunting is inflicting harm on animals. And come on, bringing nail guns into this doesn't make a lot of sense. A nail gun is a tool specifically designed for hammering nails. It can also be used to shoot people as a secondary use. Same as a hammer, it can be used for more than one thing. A gun can be used for one thing only: inflicting harm. You can't hammer nails or open tin cans very well with a gun. A gun is indeed a tool. For harming.

    To be clear, I don't really care about your US gun control issues and am highly unconcerned with "morality" concerning this issue (where did that come from? I didn't mention morality)

    Keep your guns, love them, marry them if you like, but be realistic about it. Because claiming that guns were ever intended as anything other than tools for causing harm, justified or not, is, in my opinon, incorrect.

    We shall have to agree to disagree.

    Oh, and my preferred style is BJJ, but a wonky knee plus time and motivation issues have put me on hiatus for now. I suck.
  2. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 3:06pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Danno:
    "Railroaded" means to be falsely accused and convicted of a crime one did not commit. The Japanese have very few protections for anyone accused of a crime. Their conviction rate is in the high 90's. Many things you would not be allowed to do to a suspect here are allowed and considered reasonable there.
    No thanks. Even with all our protections for the accused, the DNA revolution revealed that we had many innocents in our prisons. Not many as a percentage of the total prison population, but enough for me to know that I want the legal system to be fair. I'm sure some guilty men go free here who would be sitting in prison in Japan, but that's OK with me as long as the innocent guys don't go to prison. It's important to remember that putting an innocent man in prison still means that a guilty man goes free, assuming a crime was in fact committed by someone.

    I thought I commented on the Reilly article when you posted it awhile back. She makes some interesting points, but I have to say that from where I sit, the strongest argument for the cultural differences we've been discussing is that if she wrote about me the way she writes about Australians, I'd be up in arms (so to speak.) To my fiercely independent and fearfully vigilant ears (what was that? Did you hear that?) she makes you sound like you're one step removed from Eloi playing in the meadow. Maybe it's just my American cultural bias talking, but if someone referred to me that way I'd be bristling.

    not much of a gun culture at all here. we like it that way, want to keep it that way. it's not hurting anyone, and is in my opinion makes them a little safer.
    When you say "we," you are speaking of that majority we keep encountering. Remember the "Tyranny of the Majority?" THAT is the tyranny of the majority. Your society's majority decided to go along with a plan to deprive a minority of its rights and take away its property, and since they're a minority, you hardly noticed. You blithely remark that taking away their family heirlooms, the weapons their fathers won with blood from Japanese invaders who would gladly have made their way to Australia and destroyed your way of life, the shotguns with which they had pursued game with their sons and daughters in the field on beautiful days, was "not hurting anyone."
    It just isn't true. It's not hurting anyone you care about. That's not the same thing. Once you allow the majority to have absolute say over everyone, it's simply a matter of whose ox gets gored.
    Don't get me wrong; the United States has absorbed quite a few of your shooters, and I at least am more than happy to continue. But they shouldn't have had to leave their homeland to exercise their rights.


    The shop catalogue you posted was interesting. It confirmed most of what I thought about your laws, which were also more explicitly explained elsewhere on the site. They say they're getting a "lever-action shotgun" soon, but there's no photo--I wonder if that's a shotgun using the popular American lever action, tube magazine and the rest? I've never seen such a beast. I guess if you can't have semi-auto or pump, you do what you can. I'd feel kind of stupid if I had banned pump shotguns because they could fire too quickly, only to find people reviving the lever action in 12 gauge shotguns because I was too dumb to know how the various actions worked. But legislators tend to be allergic to research the world over, I suppose.

    Your laws are fascinating. You should know that I live in a part of the states with what we consider Draconian gun laws. In fact, it is common for shooters to refer to my state as the PRI--meaning the People's Republic of Illinois. Like Australia as a whole, we have a large rural area dominated by Chicago, a large urban mass. It's a bit like having a tumor, actually.
    Here, you can own any firearm except those controlled by the National Firearms Act--basically, any machine gun, sawed-off shotgun or rifle, or "silencers." "Destructive Devices" as defined under federal law are also out, so no Lahti 20mm anti-tank rifles. Of course, if you don't like it, you can move across the state lines to Indiana, Kentucky, Missouri or Wisconsin.
    To own a firearm here, you must have a Firearm Owner ID card. It costs $5.00 for 5 years, but it takes about 2-6 weeks to get, sometimes longer. Even after that, you must have an "instant background check" done before you purchase each firearm and wait 3 days for a pistol, 1 day for a long arm. This is your "cooling off period" in case you rushed to the gun store to get a gun to kill someone with right away. If you rushed out to get a gun because your ex-husband called and said he's going rape you in front of the kids, you also get to cool off.
    To buy from a private citizen, you simply show him your FOID, write down the number from his, pay up and wait the 1-3 days.
    That's considered ridiculous and near-Nazi by American standards. We're fond of pointing out that in North America, only Illinois, New Jersey, and Cuba have a FOID requirement.

    Now, let's look at your laws:

    FIREARMS LICENCE CATEGORIES

    Category A


    * air rifles
    * rimfire rifles (other than self loading)
    * shotguns (other than pump action or self loading)
    * shotgun/rimfire rifle combination

    Category B

    * muzzle-loading firearms (other than pistols)
    * centrefire rifles (other than self-loading)
    * shotgun/centrefire combinations

    Category C
    Prohibited except for official purposes


    * self-loading rimfire rifles with magazine capacity of no more than 10 rnds
    * self-loading shotguns with magazine capacity of no more than 5 rnds
    * pump action shotguns with magazine capacity of no more than 5 rnds

    Category D
    Prohibited except for official purposes


    * self-loading centrefire rifles
    * self-loading rimfire rifles with a magazine capacity of more than 10 rnds
    * self-loading shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than 5 rnds
    * pump action shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than 5 rnds
    * any firearm to which a category C licence applies

    In all Licence Categories, the licensee is authorised to possess or use registered firearm(s) of the kind which the licence applies, but only for the purpose established by the licensee as being the genuine reason(s) for possessing or using the firearm(s).

    The genuine reasons for having a licence are summarised below:

    * sport/target shooting - i.e current membership of an approved club
    * recreational hunting/vermin control - i.e as the owner or occupier of rural land, or permission is given by the owner or occupier of rural land, or current membership of an approved hunting club
    * primary production
    * vertebrate pest animal control
    * business or employment
    * occupational requirements relating to rural purposes
    * animal welfare
    * firearms collection

    Note: Personal or property protection is not a genuine reason
    I particularly enjoy the part at the end where they tell you, the gun owner, which uses of your property are "genuine" and which are not. Personal, defense, of course, is not. Use a pitchfork, serf!


    Here are the four guns I own that I see prohibited on that list. Oooohhh, scary!

    This is a Marlin Model 60. Your basic kid's gun, a tube-fed .22 lr perfect for squirrels and tin cans. My grandfather purchased one of these for each of his grandchildren almost thirty years ago when the local Woolworth's department store closed. They were Woolworth special editions with little golden medallions inset into the stocks. They were inexpensive on closeout and gave him the chance to get identical rifles for each of us (there were four of us then.) Grandpa ended up holding on to these rifles for years, convinced that my cousins would simply sell theirs for quick cash. He never told me about mine, either, for fear it would start an argument. When my wife and I adopted our sons, he told me he had something for me and brought out this little plinker. It's nothing special to anyone else, but to me it's the gift my grandfather always wanted to give me. It's my inheritance. Nobody gets that rifle. I'll melt it down myself before I let some bureaucrat throw it on a pile.



    This is my Jaeger AP-74. It looks like an AR-15 or an M-16, but it's another plinker. My dad taught me to shoot a rifle with this gun. If you look carefully, you can see the real magazine sticking out of the bottom of the mockup of a larger .223 magazine. It's another .22 lr. The same things that make the AR-15 design so useful for a soldier make it great for kids. It's light, it's comfortable, and it's easy to use. I don't know if that horrifies you, but this gun is another part of my inheritance. My father used to sit next to me and load magazines as fast as he could when I was a child. The older I got, the more he talked about "your rifle." I told him it was his rifle for a long time, and then one day I realized I was being foolish and stubborn and I took it home. Now my sons shoot it, and I sit next to them loading magazines as fast as I can. Dad bought himself another one, but mine's nicer. :)
    Again, nobody gets this rifle. In Australia I'd have been offered some sum of money that wouldn't come close to the monetary value of this gun, and told I had to turn it over and accept their "compensation." Screw that. They couldn't have compensated me for this gun.



    This is the closest thing I could find to the Remington 1120 I own. When I was ten years old, my father and I put my name on a raffle ticket at a gun show. Dad always put my name in, not his, just as I do with my boys now. I won.
    The prize was a Remington 1187 Express 12 gauge shotgun. It's a semi-automatic with a very long barrel designed specifically for shooting at ducks and geese over longer distances. Big, heavy, long, and completely inappropriate for a boy of 10.
    At that time, dad still had his gun shop, and one day a man came in to trade a Remington 1120LT, the lightweight, 20-gauge version of the same gun. It was perfect for a young boy, so dad traded him the 1187 and I had a new gun. It was perfectly balanced and cut for me (it was really designed for women, but it worked great for kids) and it had a slug barrel with rifle-like sights for deer hunting.
    Dad even filled the engraving with a gold filler, and I polished the wood of that gun until it shone. It is simply a beautiful gun. There's a lot of wear on that gun now and some scratches in the wood, but it's good honest wear and the wood still shines. At this point I want to get another and restore both to like-new for my sons. I carried that gun after every kind of game for years. Only recently did I move on.



    This is an Ithaca Model 37 Featherweight. It was first produced in 1937, so we are using the term "Featherweight" rather loosely here. It's a serious chunk of steel. However, if you slip and drop it into gooey mud, you can field strip it, wash out the barrel and action in a creek, and it will function perfectly in 20-degree weather. I know this because I have done it.

    This shotgun was carried by my father, my mother, my grandfather, and my grandmother. I'm not sure what grandma liked about this gun, because it's heavy and the recoil is no joke, but she's not one to complain about anything. This one has more than a little wear; there's more shiny metal than bluing on most of it, and the bluing that's there is thin. But it's absolutely reliable and shoots like a rifle, and it will stop any game in North America at close enough range. It's illegal to hunt deer with a rifle here, so shotguns like this one get all the glory.
    I like this gun. This is my gun. You can't have it, he can't have it, and "they" certainly can't have it. Period.
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  3. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 3:25pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Shawarma:
    Actually, the use of the hammer as a weapon goes back much farther than the use of the hammer as a building tool. A hammer is simply a club with a hard, weighted head. People were using them to hunt and fight long before anyone figured out that you could use friction to join wood together with nails or pegs.

    As far as this goes:
    And come on, bringing nail guns into this doesn't make a lot of sense. A nail gun is a tool specifically designed for hammering nails. It can also be used to shoot people as a secondary use.
    You said all guns are designed only to hurt people. I gave you examples of many which are not. You now retort that since the example I gave you is a gun that is not designed to hurt people, it isn't fair to bring it into our conversation about whether all guns are designed to hurt people or not.

    You've made an assertion, and now you've stated that it's unfair to cite a fact which refutes that assertion. If those are the rules, I suppose I might as well concede. Not very convincing, though.

    Anyway, you win. You have proven the following assertion:

    All guns are designed to hurt people, excluding the guns which are not designed to hurt people.

    This is what people who get paid too much to write books nobody reads call a "tautology."
    *********************************************
  4. Don Gwinn is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 3:29pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's quite possible everyone with mod powers has gotten bored and stopped reading this. I can't believe it's still here.
    *********************************************
  5. Planktime is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 5:01pm


     Style: Arnis, judo, Taichi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    I think it's quite possible everyone with mod powers has gotten bored and stopped reading this. I can't believe it's still here.

    I am also not sure why it is in the armory still. Well the fact is I feel this tread has become sort of a joke like most hippy gun control threads. No matter how much logic, thought, or passion we as gun owners put into them they always end with..... Guns are designed only to hurt people and you shouldnt hurt people......

    So let me be the first to say.

    Of the guns I own.
    several rifles
    a few shotguns
    and a few hand guns.

    NONE have ever been used on a person.

    NONE have ever hurt anyone. Aside from maybe me when i pinched my self int he action on my AR.

    God willing (not that i beleive in god but ok) they will never EVER be used in the two above mentioned ways. So how am I hurting society by owning them?
    The ball is in your court bubs if you can make a rational argument other then some one may steal them, because that can happen with kitchen knifes, cars, stickes, pipes, rope, shoes, pens, shovels, axes, pickaxes, ice picks....you get the idea. It can also happen if they are at a gun club, police station, military installation or Gunshop.
    Last edited by Planktime; 5/07/2006 5:04pm at .
  6. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 5:24pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All I know is outlawing weapons in Britian and Australia have not stopped crime.

    "Stand your ground" laws in Florida heavily reduced crime.

    I won't argue that guns stop crime, however, I will argue against outlawing them will stop crime. If crime will happen regardless I want to be able to defend myself.
    Last edited by Plasma; 5/07/2006 5:26pm at .
  7. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 10:01pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    first of all, i'm not too fond of the "guns for t3h k1LL" argument. if that were true then there would be no place in our society for guns whatsoever, but there are people here who do need guns, ones which are made for purposes other than killing people.

    i do know personally a farmer who got into an argument and shot and killed someone (he's in jail), however i don't believe that every gun should be banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    "Railroaded" means to be falsely accused and convicted of a crime one did not commit.
    you seem to think that a law which is introduced to stop people from doing anything moronic will cause society to collapse around you, or at least turn into a communist state.

    maybe this is near the core of the argument. i think that morons need to be protected from themselves, and also for the sake of the people around them, and you believe... actually, you've already described your opposing view.

    we have many more laws which would probably make you feel ill, but it's an awesome country to live in. safe, wealthy, healthy. in fact, our next budget surplus is expected to be $17 billion. not bad for 20 million people. i'd truly rather be here than any country in the world. but the way you talk, this place should be hell on earth!

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Maybe it's just my American cultural bias talking, but if someone referred to me that way I'd be bristling.
    i'd say it's because of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    When you say "we," you are speaking of that majority we keep encountering. Remember the "Tyranny of the Majority?" THAT is the tyranny of the majority.
    isn't there a minority in america who wants intelligent design to be taught in schools? does that mean they are being oppressed when they are rejected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Your society's majority decided to go along with a plan to deprive a minority of its rights and take away its property, and since they're a minority, you hardly noticed.
    if you were a political party in australia whose selling point was the loosening up of gun laws (i mean just "loosening", not even getting near the american style), you'd never get in. you might as well go to palestine and try to get voted in as an anti-muslim, pro-israeli party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    You blithely remark that taking away their family heirlooms, the weapons their fathers won with blood from Japanese invaders who would gladly have made their way to Australia and destroyed your way of life, the shotguns with which they had pursued game with their sons and daughters in the field on beautiful days, was "not hurting anyone."
    It just isn't true. It's not hurting anyone you care about.
    you have no idea how rediculous this sounds to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Once you allow the majority to have absolute say over everyone, it's simply a matter of whose ox gets gored.
    we aren't jailing or executing a certain race or religious group. guns that we consider unecessarily dangerous to have lying around have been taken away. guns that are truly needed can still be bought and used. that's it.

    before, you said it was "maddening" to hear me say sort of thing, well i feel the same way when we are debating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Don't get me wrong; the United States has absorbed quite a few of your shooters, and I at least am more than happy to continue. But they shouldn't have had to leave their homeland to exercise their rights.
    if they're willing to move to another country just to shoot a gun that you aren't allowed to own here, that's good for them. i'm glad that there is another country in the world that can allow them to do that (i'm not being sarcastic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    I particularly enjoy the part at the end where they tell you, the gun owner, which uses of your property are "genuine" and which are not. Personal, defense, of course, is not. Use a pitchfork, serf!
    you aren't allowed to use a pitchfork either. you aren't allowed to kill anyone at all, whether you use a weapon or not. in extreme cases of self defense it's different i believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    Like Australia as a whole, we have a large rural area dominated by Chicago, a large urban mass. It's a bit like having a tumor, actually.
    lol. do you live in a rural area? i grew up in the country myself. finished high school in a town of 500 people in semi-arid desert.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    If you rushed out to get a gun because your ex-husband called and said he's going rape you in front of the kids, you also get to cool off.
    see, i find it disturbing that you think finding a gun and killing someone is an acceptable answer to a threat, a kind of shoot first, ask questions later attitude. not how it works here.

    *********

    i read the descriptions of your guns. i've known many gun owners, my father and brothers included, and i've used guns myself. but i have never in my life heard anyone talk about guns the way you just did. and - i really take what you say to heart.

    it's not just an object to you. it's also about your bond with your father, your grandfather and your children. it symbolises your childhood, your history, your culture, your people. a truly signifacant part of your life and your heart. i thank you for taking the time to give me this perspective.

    all i can say is that it's different here. i am truly taken aback by many an american's disgust with the australian laws.

    but basically what i'm after is an admittance that our version of life might actually work for us.

    maybe there is more than one system in the world that can keep its people fed, clothed and happy, and represent them in the way they wish to be represented. maybe it isn't true that one single system can be expected to work in any part of the world for any people.

    i'm not saying the american way is inferior or bad. we're terribly similar in many ways. just that the exact same system might not work for us. we've chosen a slightly different path. is that ok?

    one more thing... beyond this i'm not sure if we can take some parts of the debate much further. we'll be chasing each other in circles forever. we are each defending the beliefs of entire countries. it's a pretty hefty task.
    Last edited by danno; 5/07/2006 10:08pm at .
  8. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 10:05pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Don Gwinn
    I think it's quite possible everyone with mod powers has gotten bored and stopped reading this. I can't believe it's still here.
    i think you're right.
  9. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 10:24pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I should add that the Japanese invasion of Australia was neither as definite, not as threatening, as many believe. There are serious questions regarding Japan's capacity to secure a country the size of Australia, in terms of the manpower and force they could muster, their economy and resources, and their supply chains. If my memory is correct, the Japanese Army also seriously doubted their capacity to secure Australia. This is not to trivialise the impressive (if a little tardy) American contribution to the Pacific conflict, but to note that the Japanese conquest of Australia was not necessarily as pressing as we might believe.
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  10. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2006 10:29pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    I should add that the Japanese invasion of Australia was neither as definite, not as threatening, as many believe. There are serious questions regarding Japan's capacity to secure a country the size of Australia, in terms of the manpower and force they could muster, their economy and resources, and their supply chains. If my memory is correct, the Japanese Army also seriously doubted their capacity to secure Australia. This is not to trivialise the impressive (if a little tardy) American contribution to the Pacific conflict, but to note that the Japanese conquest of Australia was not necessarily as pressing as we might believe.
    you're right. apparently the invasion was also played up a little by the australian government for political reasons if i remember correctly.
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