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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 9:54am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Since I've incorporated these techniques from the get-go, there is no way to measure their effectiveness within my own physiology compared to the results of not training in this fashion. Does that make any sense at all?
    No, it does not. Because, if it did, you would have no problem showing the result of your exercises and sparring and holding that out as a standard.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 10:27am

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, you are the sum of your total training? If that is the case, then you must be experiencing the equation. Some of your variables have too low a coefficient to be of any use. The current variable you are attempting to adjust is an order of magnitude lower then the <does_spar> variable. Please also keep in mind this is a 4D setting, so you are only limited by your time. What are you spending your time doing?
  3. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:21am


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some great discussion here, I like that.

    First, the issue of Chinese body proprotions:
    From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    Anthropometric measurements and body proportions among Chinese children.

    Cheng JC, Leung SS, Lau J.

    Department of Orthopaedics and Traumatology, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Prince of Wales Hospital, Shatin.

    There are significant racial differences in body proportions. Such data are not readily available for Chinese children. This article reports a cross section study of body proportions of 2193 Hong Kong Chinese children, ages 4 to 16 years, with equal gender distribution. Standing height, sitting height, and arm span were measured with standard equipment and methodology. Lower segment height was calculated as the difference between standing height and sitting height. Statistical analysis of the results showed a high linear correlation of the standing height with arm span, sitting height, and lower segment height, with a correlation coefficient ranging from 0.965 to 0.983 for both genders. When expressed as the ratio of standing height to arm span, the value was relatively constant and changed only linearly from 1.03 to 1 in girls and 1.03 to 0.98 in boys ages 4 to 16 years. The ratio of sitting height to lower segment height varied from a mean of 1.4 to 1.14 in boys and 1.36 to 1.18 in girls ages 4 to 16 years. The Chinese children were found to have a proportional limb segmental length relative to the trunk that differed significantly from the proportionally longer limbs in whites and blacks.

    < end snip >

    When you're talking about the level of precision and control that high level chinese martial arts demand of the practicioner, and the level of fine tuning that the arts have received over the years, and bear in mind the way physics works, you will realize that the specific techniques used to, say, jump, flip, kick, etc, etc, etc, are affected by the specific body proportions of the practicioner.

    If you were a school headmaster and had to pick the best potential students, you'd pick the ones with the most ideal body types for the art. And then you tailor it to fit. It's the exact same practice used by any reputable dance studio or gymnastics training center.

    Yang Tai Chi is unique in that the Yangs were fucking huge dudes by comparison to their contempories. Yang Lu Chan was said to be six feet (or seven feet, or four foot two with a hunchback, depending on who's doing the telling), and his grandson Yang Cheng Fu, my sifu's Great-great grandmaster (lol), was about 6' 2" and 300lbs of doughboy badass.

    http://dongfangtaiji.5u.com/photo3.html

    According to family legend, his dad locked him in a closet and forced him to study alone for four years as punishment for being a bouncer at a brothel and thus disgracing the family style. His only contact with the outside world was his daily spear drills with dad.

    In reference to the experiment.

    We're measuring one thing, one way, with a variety of applications, and it can go on for various lengths of time. This is an experiment that any person can try.
    Here's my current set of ideas:

    Assumptions: Improved Cardiovascular efficiency will improve nearly every aspect of a fighter's performance.

    Hypothesis: Standing Meditation (SM) and QiGong (QG) excercises will improve cardiovascular efficency.

    Experiment: Martial Artists will incorporate a light routine of simple SM and QG into their regular practice and report on subjective and objective results.

    Data Sought: Once per month, a suitable measure of cardiovascular efficiency will be performed and the change determined. In addition, fighters will be asked to report on their subjective determination of the practice's improvement to fighting effectiveness.

    Subjects:
    Three groups will be used.

    Group A will incorporate 5-10 minutes of SM and QG into their regular routine

    Group B will extend their normal cardiovascular routine by 5-10 minutes

    Group C will make no change to their routine

    Length of Experiment: Ongoing, participants will be invited to share results for as long as they care to gather data, with a minimum requested commitment of one month.


    Are there any suggestions as to how I could improve the rigor of the experiment?

    As far as the cardiovascular efficiency, I'm thinking perhaps of a stationary bike test.

    It's easy enough to do, takes 20 minutes or so.

    You need a partner, an excercise bike, and a heart monitor.

    The way it works is, you maintain a certain speed for the duration of the test while the partner increases the amount of tension on the bike at regular intervals and records the change in your heart rate over time. The air force uses it as a measurement of aerobic fitness.
  4. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:26am


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    No, it does not. Because, if it did, you would have no problem showing the result of your exercises and sparring and holding that out as a standard.
    Are you sincerely that ignorant or just willfully obstinant?

    The results of any one fight are subject to far too many variables to be of any use as a measure here, homer.

    What I'm advocating is that adopting these techniques will effect a change relative to the skill a fighter had prior, not change relative to the skill of any other fighter.

    What do you think this **** is, magic fairy chi dust?
  5. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:27am

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    When you're talking about the level of precision and control that high level chinese martial arts demand of the practicioner, and the level of fine tuning that the arts have received over the years, and bear in mind the way physics works, you will realize that the specific techniques used to, say, jump, flip, kick, etc, etc, etc, are affected by the specific body proportions of the practicioner.
    Take a page from Helio Gracie's book.
    The better idea is to take an art and adapt it to you.
    Not to preselect only the people that might be optimal for the currently defined techniques.
    When you are a great martial artist, it's not because your body is the right shape/composition, it's because you train hard to kick ass.
    When you are a mediocre martial artist, there's no benefit in tuning the art to a specific body type anyway.
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

    "Joe Lauzon looks like a quiet, Internet guy..." -- Dana White
  6. meng_mao is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:27am

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     Style: kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    qi gong exercises are so gay. Can we just do standing meditation stuff for A?
    52 blocks documentary: arrived

    "Joe Lauzon looks like a quiet, Internet guy..." -- Dana White
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:48am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    Are you sincerely that ignorant or just willfully obstinant?

    The results of any one fight are subject to far too many variables to be of any use as a measure here, homer.

    What I'm advocating is that adopting these techniques will effect a change relative to the skill a fighter had prior, not change relative to the skill of any other fighter.

    What do you think this **** is, magic fairy chi dust?
    ONE fight would at least be a start.

    You admit freely that you personally have no experience applying anything you are advocating nor do you have a personal baseline of which to compare to. So, without any basis, yet still clinging to your blind faith that it will work and also the belief of so many "closed-minded" people here, the obstinant, ignorant, "magic fairy chi dust" would be your contention of your aptly self-named "****", not mine.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:49am


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by meng_mao
    Take a page from Helio Gracie's book.
    The better idea is to take an art and adapt it to you.
    Not to preselect only the people that might be optimal for the currently defined techniques.
    When you are a great martial artist, it's not because your body is the right shape/composition, it's because you train hard to kick ass.
    When you are a mediocre martial artist, there's no benefit in tuning the art to a specific body type anyway.
    I agree wholeheartedly, and that is what I practice.

    This tangent was originally begun with the statment "I am not a true Chinese Martial Artist, I'm Irish. True Chinese Martial arts are optimized for Chinese bodies. Chinese body proportions are different than Caucasian bodies. I am, however, a dedicated student of Chinese Martial Arts."

    In other words, It's a matter of historical record and verifiable scientific fact that many Chinese martial arts techniques are optimized for Chinese bodies.

    Therefore certain techniques may not be as effective if a Caucasian tries to employ them, so a Caucasian like myself is probably better off focusing on other techniques.

    Training hard to kick ass requires as much mental as physical exertion.

    Meng_mao, the qigong I'm suggesting aren't bad. They're the ones the iron palm practicioners of Shaolin use for conditioning and healing. I mix them in with some bagua drills for good measure and it's a dynamic effect. It'll get you some strengthing, healing, and conditioning in addition to the SM

    And no, I'm not giving away the bagua drills, lol.

    But, maybe that would be too much to include right off the bat.

    We'll make it optional, how's that?

    As long as we get an honest record of what you did, we can figure out what happened.
  9. peng is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:53am


     Style: Yang Taiji, Hsing-I

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    ONE fight would at least be a start.

    You admit freely that you personally have no experience applying anything you are advocating nor do you have a personal baseline of which to compare to. So, without any basis, yet still clinging to your blind faith that it will work and also the belief of so many "closed-minded" people here, the obstinant, ignorant, "magic fairy chi dust" would be your contention of your aptly self-named "****", not mine.
    Do you need to fight to measure cardiovascular effectiveness?

    This discussion in no way involves strategy, technique, or tactics. So why don't you take your attitude back to the kids table?

    Edit:
    And to reiterate, the baseline needed for a scientific approach would be the effect of these excercises WHEN INTRODUCED INTO AN EXISTING PROGRAM THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE THEM ALREADY.

    Since I already incorporate them into my daily routine THERE WOULD BE NO WAY TO SHOW THE CHANGE THAT ADOPTING THESE EXCERCISES CAUSED.

    The only thing that I am suggesting these excercises affect directly is CARDIOVASCULAR EFFICIENCY.

    Cardiovascular efficiency translates into MORE OXYGEN IN YOUR MUSCLES which translates into INCREASED STAMINA (measured as strength over time).

    So, yes we all understand that I don't regularly participate in MMA trophy bouts, nor have I ever engaged in full speed combat with a highly skilled opponent.

    I'm just a 4-year student of a martial art that doesn't traditionally go to blows looking to branch into competitoin.

    I will gladly let you whoop my ass at the earliest opportunity. Your comments have been duly noted. I have every intention of proving these theories in the ring.
    Last edited by peng; 5/01/2006 12:00pm at .
  10. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    5/01/2006 11:59am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by peng
    In other words, It's a matter of historical record and verifiable scientific fact that many Chinese martial arts techniques are optimized for Chinese bodies.

    These are the jokes, folks.


    :bssign: :bssign: :bssign:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
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