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  1. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 7:42am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Boxing wins again

    Good article by Eddie Goldman (If you follow combat sports you should know who this guy is) on how the state of heavyweight boxing isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

    http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...-heavyweights/

    But it also included this choice bit on MMA...

    Of course, the reality is that what boxing produces is at most the best boxer, and not necessarily the best fighter in any style or under any rules. But the public perception has been, and even today remains to a large extent, that the heavyweight champ is the best fighter on the planet.

    The sloppy boxing techniques, weak chins, and overall mediocre striking usually on display even by some of the top competitors in mixed martial arts events make their claim that they are presenting “ultimate” fighting dubious. That sport is at its technical, artistic, and athletic best when its submission holds take center stage. Too often, and especially for events held in a cage rather than a ring, it devolves into what a long-time manager and former participant in the combat sports labels “junior boxing.” Since many (but not all) of these events showcase and encourage gutter behavior, trash-talking, and similar anti-social mindlessness, they emerge in a similar category as the fake pro “wrestling,” with tainted credibility as a sport even though they generally run real fights. (The issue of fighter safety should be considered separately, since when properly or even mildly regulated, mixed martial arts has a far safer track record than boxing, the bleatings of some ignorant and biased politicians and writers notwithstanding.)

    Thus, despite the limitations of the techniques allowed in boxing, only this sport remains in a position to be considered both the most effective and popular form of combat sports.

    Emphasis added. Is he right? Most mma striking is sloppy? that boxing is the "most effective and popular form of combat sports"?
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  2. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 7:46am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    man.. thought this was in YMAS... oh well.
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
  3. Traditional Tom is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 7:47am

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    Yes. Yes he is.
  4. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 8:13am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There was one fight at the UFC 55 that was just fucking horrendous and sloppy - Mario Cruz vs Keigo Kunihara. Both fighters were horrible, horrible, horrible in their boxing. I dunno, it was one of the worst things I've ever seen. The only redeeming glory of the bout was when Cruz RNC'ed his opponent, and that was it. That fight reminded me of the many vidclips on the internet of youngsters throwing haymakers.

    Really, that's how bad it was. Try to see if you can rent the DVD in Blockbusters. The boxing was God awful.

    Liberally quoting the commentators (if my memory servers me well), these were their comments:
    - No disrespect to their skills, but this is MMA
    - I would imagine they have worked on their boxing skills
    - This looks like junior boxing
    - Mario throws a punch but pulls his head, his whole body backwards as if he is afraid to get hit

    Maybe that's the type of boxing skills in MMA that Goldman is referring to...

    ... in my 100% uneducated opinion, the boxing skills on that fight sucked balls :XXpuke:
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  5. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 8:25am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Since many (but not all) of these events showcase and encourage gutter behavior, trash-talking, and similar anti-social mindlessness, they emerge in a similar category as the fake pro “wrestling,” with tainted credibility as a sport even though they generally run real fights.
    An excellent criticism of boxing...

    It's true that some MMA fighters get away with bad boxing because they have excellent skills in other areas, or because their technique, while apalling as pure boxing, is effective for their style of MMA (witness Ricardo Arona).

    I think most writing I've seen by boxers fails to appreciate that it's a lot easier to defend a punch when it's the only thing coming. It's far harder when you also have to worry about takedowns, kicks, knees etc. This is why I think they perceive 'weak chins'.
    Quote Originally Posted by elnyka
    There was one fight at the UFC 55 that was just fucking horrendous and sloppy - Mario Cruz vs Keigo Kunihara.
    I think Pe de Pano had been striking for about a month at that point.
    Last edited by PointyShinyBurn; 4/28/2006 8:27am at .
  6. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 8:45am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i think that most of the criticisms boxers give to MMA are irrelevant.

    the rules of other combat sports leave gaping holes you have to fill when you fight MMA. you can't really "box". you can't kickbox properly either. you can't even do proper BJJ. you have to adapt everything.

    besides, one of the interesting things about MMA is the fact that people can be exceptional in a certain ways and not so good in others, yet be relatively successful.

    and about the trash talk thing - since when did boxing not have trash talk?
  7. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 9:09am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PirateJon
    most effective... form of combat sports
    most effective? in what respect? if he means under any rules - NO.
  8. BSDaemon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 9:49am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    He thinks MMA fighters boxing is bad.... But how bad is a Boxer's kicking, wrestling, and groundfighting?
  9. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 10:35am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    well, the clinch is actually a part of boxing. i could say that the clinch in boxing is inferior to the clinch one would see in most MMA bouts. but i'd be missing the point wouldn't i?
  10. PirateJon is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2006 10:54am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bud Shi Dist
    He thinks MMA fighters boxing is bad.... But how bad is a Boxer's kicking, wrestling, and groundfighting?
    Kinda missing the point. With all of those weapons avalible, then why do a great many MMA matches end up being two guy circling each other throwing sloppy punches?

    For example - the TUF3 episode last night. two acomplished MMA fighters go at it and most of the match looks like "junior boxing".


    Also -
    Why is it easier to get to the top of MMA without being a good striker?

    Is it due to the striking ruleset and so giving ammo to some TMA arguements about sportfighting being unrealistic?

    Or could it be that the sport reflects that having a good grappling game *IS* more important than a good striking game and thus bjj wins again?
    You can't make people smarter. You can expose them to information, but your responsibility stops there.
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