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  1. Yrkoon9 is offline
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    Brock Sampson

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 10:35am

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     Style: 5.56

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry to say this but taking half-guard in MMA is suicidal. There are too many examples of guys just taking incredible beatings from this position.


    Let me edumicate. Frank Mir rolls at Cobra Kai sometimes. His half-guard is pretty damn sweet. He has some subs and a lot of sweep action from this position. But did you see what happened to his face when Mir tried his half-guard against PDP?
  2. Locu5 is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 12:21pm

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     Style: Alliance BJJ (Blue)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah I get fussed at for it, specifically to watch the elbows. I think its a holdover habit from pure rolling, though I will be the first to admit I do not do enough MMA sparring. Currently, I am working on getting down my butterfly to technical stand, sweep, and arm drag.
  3. Xanen is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2006 4:40pm


     Style: BJJ (Blue)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was just watching some old UFC vids and noticed that Carlos Newton actually pulled off this exact sweep against Matt Hughes. He almost got caught in a guillotine for it, but it worked.
  4. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 9:08am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Being 6'3", and apparently not as flexible as I would like, I find getting into this half-guard butterfly position requires a bit too much work for me. Drilling I can pull off this sweep but under full resistance I have a lot of trouble. I'm a big fan of Eddie Bravo's lockdown in the half guard position (been working it for a few months now and it has increased my half guard control exponentially) especially from no-gi.

    Couple the lockdown with an over hook on the side locked down and a quick bridge to that side typically gives me solid sweep to side control with control of the overhooked arm to set up whatever is available.

    Just an idea for people with abnormally long legs like me.
  5. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 9:21am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I use lockdown with the overhook I can practically guarantee that I'm going to stall out the rest of the match getting flattened out and crossfaced. Maybe I would just get a better understanding of how to use the lockdown to break their base, but I've enjoyed putting the hook in and opening up guard instead.
  6. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 9:21am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    Being 6'3", and apparently not as flexible as I would like, I find getting into this half-guard butterfly position requires a bit too much work for me. Drilling I can pull off this sweep but under full resistance I have a lot of trouble. I'm a big fan of Eddie Bravo's lockdown in the half guard position (been working it for a few months now and it has increased my half guard control exponentially) especially from no-gi.

    Couple the lockdown with an over hook on the side locked down and a quick bridge to that side typically gives me solid sweep to side control with control of the overhooked arm to set up whatever is available.

    Just an idea for people with abnormally long legs like me.
    What are you, an ostrich? I don't have the problem of abnormally long legs, but mine are fairly big, giving me a similar problem. Scooting my hips out and getting up on my side momentarily generally gives me enough space to put my hook in, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    When I use lockdown with the overhook I can practically guarantee that I'm going to stall out the rest of the match getting flattened out and crossfaced. Maybe I would just get a better understanding of how to use the lockdown to break their base, but I've enjoyed putting the hook in and opening up guard instead.
    "Man, I think trying to make lockdown work right set my game back by months." -- Another blue belt at my school, talking to me.

    I'm not saying it sucks, but I can't seem to do much with it. Other than using it to get other fatties off of my chest--after which I switch back to regular half guard or go for this, I don't really use it. Also, I've been playing with going from half to quarter guard since I came back from being injured, but it remains to be seen if that becomes a permanent addition to my game.
    Last edited by Cassius; 5/22/2006 9:32am at .
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  7. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 9:32am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Use monkey feet to stretch their leg back, escape your hips to create space, snail toes to wiggle in, and even manually pull your foot in. If you combine all of these methods, I doubt you'll still have trouble getting the hook.

    I've actually had moderate success with lockdown and can trap their leg almost indefinitely. But overall, it kills my hip movement and makes turning on my side and coming under their hips harder than just playing a "normal" half guard. This gets even worse if start trying to use double underhooks and hugging them like Eddie swears by.

    That said, I have seen 10th Planet guys talk about how you just need a lot of practice to make it work right (as they say about rubber guard). They gave a hint about how to use the lockdown, saying to use the lockdown to lift their leg, then swing it down, making the person rock back and forth. On the down swing, their weight will come off you some, which is when you can use the momentum to come up on your side. Eddie refered to this as "whipping". This is also when you can create the space to fight for double underhooks. Maybe that'll help you with lockdown. It didn't do that much for me, but then again, I've stopped using lockdown enough to really tell.

    Maybe I'll now never get enough EXP into my Eddie Bravo Half Guard to see why this is the only way he ever plays half guard, but since I'm already having greater and more immediate success with the Gordo and Gustavo Machado Half Guard, I don't really care.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 5/22/2006 9:54am at .
  8. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 9:45am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've had mild success with the lockdown. It usually ends with a half assed sweep that turns into a scramble. Its great on bigger guys, but I dont put too much stock in it. I really just use it on guys who are 90% muscle and bigger then I am. Otherwise I just try to shrimp back to guard then sweep.
  9. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 10:03am

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    When I use lockdown with the overhook I can practically guarantee that I'm going to stall out the rest of the match getting flattened out and crossfaced. Maybe I would just get a better understanding of how to use the lockdown to break their base, but I've enjoyed putting the hook in and opening up guard instead.
    Well, use what works for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    What are you, an ostrich? I don't have the problem of abnormally long legs, but mine are fairly big, giving me a similar problem. Scooting my hips out and getting up on my side momentarily generally gives me enough space to put my hook in, though.
    LOL, reminds me of the "skinny legs" line you hear at the gym sometime..."Hey, what do feed the chicken your riding?", or something like that.

    I see what your saying and I'm a huge proponent of skipping my hips like a ************ to gain position and angle. But, it seems to me (and I'm just visualizing here) that skipping your hip ***Using Aesopian's pic in the first post for position reference*** to the right to create space to get your left butterfly in would create an opportunity for the person on top to pass your guard to their left or take your back. I understand that the skip is done during the flow of the fight and is done quickly but the opening seems to be there for the person to pass or make your position more precarious if your skip that way.

    EDIT - Although since you use this skip to gain the position, you would know better than me, I'm just looking at the position in my head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aesopian
    Use monkey feet to stretch their leg back, escape your hips to create space, snail toes to wiggle in, and even manually pull your foot in. If you combine all of these methods, I doubt you'll still have trouble getting the hook.

    I've actually had moderate success with lockdown and can trap their leg almost indefinitely. But overall, it kills my hip movement and makes turning on my side and coming under their hips harder than just playing a "normal" half guard. This gets even worse if start trying to use double underhooks and huggign them like Eddie swears by in his book.

    That said, I have seen 10th Planet guys talk about how you just need a lot of practice to make it work right (as they say about rubber guard). They gave a hint about how to use the lockdown, saying to use the lockdown to lift their leg, then swing it down, making the person rock back and forth. On the down swing, their weight will come off you some, which is when you can use the momentum to come up on your side. Eddie refered to this as "whipping". This is also when you can create the space to fight for double underhooks. Maybe that'll help you with lockdown. It didn't do that much for me, but then again, I've stopped using lockdown enough to really tell.

    Maybe I'll now never get enough EXP into my Eddie Bravo Half Guard to see why this is the only way he ever plays half guard, but since I'm already having greater and more immediate success with the Gordo and Gustavo Machado Half Guard, I don't really care.
    I agree; double underhooks and lockdown is a stalemate for me too and I agree that with that set up I cannot seem to move my hips to progress into anything either.

    The sweep I described above is similar to the "whipping" movement (although it is rather a "tucking" movement) on the knee locked down. Obviously, to bridge and complete the sweep you have to release the lock down and tuck the opponents knee using your leg almost simultaneously.

    So I guess the sweep does not utilize a strict Bravo "Lockdown" because you have to release it at some point and explode to perform the sweep, but lockdown is the setup.

    But hey, if it ain't broke don't fix it I guess.

    Monkey Feet and Snail Toes. Ha, just sounds funny, but I know what you mean. I'll work on it.
    Last edited by GoldenJonas; 5/22/2006 10:15am at .
  10. Aesopian is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/22/2006 10:22am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I understand your concern about them passing while you're escaping your hips (and it is possible), but I wouldn't consider it a big enough threat to make the butterfly hook dangerous to put it for several reason:

    You do have the "inside" leg blocking them from passing by catching the back of their knee/calf.

    You can always just reclose the half guard if you feel their leg coming out.

    They'll almost always need to lift their hips to pass, making it easier to put the hook in. This is actually one of the main uses of the hook -- stopping a half guard pass when they've got the underhook.

    And I have no idea how there is any risk of your back being taken.
    Last edited by Aesopian; 5/22/2006 10:24am at .
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