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  1. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 10:19am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sophist ippons the correct one again!
  2. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Submitting 1d6 Investigators per round

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 12:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by seattletcj
    Anyway, Shaolinz....There are obviously fighters who train hard to take advantage of things like these (multiple) failed kick attempts. What *I* saw was not just a one time fluke, it was a pattern these guys fell into. Yes its hard to catch the timing, but people do it. I'm not saying I do, but I train to, and it is done all the time in comptetitions.

    The point *was* that competitive fighting *may* create "flawed" mindsets, due to the context of the fight.
    MMA fighters also train to catch the timing. They don't train to "let" each other reset. If the person appeared to be "letting" the other person reset, it was because A) they were tired and couldn't move quickly enough to "catch the timing", or B) the other person was moving too fast for them to "catch the timing" and they didn't have an opening.

    In either case, they were able to see whether they had the opening or not, and when they didn't, they didn't attempt to "catch the timing", because trying to do so when you do not have the opening will result in getting hit in the face. That's not a bad habit; it's a /good/ habit.
  3. shinbushi is offline
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    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 12:27pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    OOPS

    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    We need to login to see that article shinbushi.
    Try this link http://taijutsu.com/content/index.ph...13.msg13#msg13
  4. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 1:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent analogy, Sophist. You know, your post actually has article potential, in my humble opinion.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  5. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 3:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Seattletcj:

    I think you're on a hiding onto nothing with the particular "issue" you're highlighting with MMA. If you're facing an opponent of roughly equivalent skill level, you're not going to be able to steamroller them; you have to disengage from situations likely to put you at a disadvantage and engage again on more favourable terms. This creates the clash-retreat-clash you're talking about. Against a much weaker opponent, it's less likely that you'll feel you've lost control of the situation and wish to disengage. This isn't a habit, this is a necessity when facing a similarly well-trained foe.

    This is not to say that there are no genuine issues with MMA styles for self-defence. To highlight one concern with a common MMA strategy, if you shoot in and take someone down to avoid his punches, and then on the ground he pulls a knife, you're likely to be in trouble. On the other hand, in the real world the ground is often concrete, and taking people down hard has been known on occasion to drastically reduce their will or ability to fight.

    The problems with using MMA styles for self-defence are chiefly found with the ruleset the testing is done under. Unremarkably, the same is true of pretty much every art; unfortunately, many arts fail to test against what one would think the most basic requirement for self-defence, an opponent who's also trying to win.

    This is a terrible distinction. To hammer home just how grave I consider it, I'm going to embark on an ill-advised analogy.

    Two groups of people are being asked to advise on the best way to train a man for being a Formula One racing driver with limited resources. One group advocates that the man should take his ordinary road car out to a racetrack and drive it round as fast as possible. Now, this hardly captures the experience fully, as his road car is underpowered in comparison, has an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission, and handles differently on the corners; but, at least he's driving. The second group claim that training on a road car will just instill bad habits, and that instead he should make a mock-up of a Formula One car's cockpit, sit in it, and make the motions he'd expect to make in a race.

    Now, some among the second group will, if pushed, admit that well, there are perhaps some minor flaws in their training, and maybe they should drive the road car occasionally as well. However, they then want the first group to legitimise their training in return by stating that driving a road car isn't a perfect solution either, and they should be more forthcoming on the bad habits that driving a road car will instill.

    Now, were you a member of the first group, how would you react to this? Any admission of the differences between driving the road car and driving a racing car in a race will be seen as a victory by the second group, a justification for continuing to advocate pretending to drive. How would you go about reasoning with them? You don't want to come to some happy insane place where everyone agrees that driving a road car is good, but pretending to drive is good too, and neither should be considered "best". You want to convince them that training people to race without giving them any driving experience in a real car is nonsense. But how?
    NICE!!!
  6. Mr. Jones is offline
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    resident sick ****

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    Posted On:
    5/08/2006 11:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Being a total psychopath

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I finally got banned. That place gave me a headache.

    Just to be clear I showed no love to Kick Chick.

    Quote Originally Posted by **** Chick
    yeah right Cesar ... you certainly have a way of showing your love.
    Quote Originally Posted by **** Chick
    ... and you'll soon see how I have a way of showing how I feel when I come across trolls such as yourself that violate our Terms of Service
    I guess I would post this if I was you if someone put me down for gloating over my yellow belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hapkido Yellow Belt
    To all other MAP members whom have read this Thread. If you are as tired of Caeser's comments please contact MAP to ban him from making future posts on MAP. His comments continue to be demeaning to individuals.
  7. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2006 5:15pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophist
    Seattletcj:

    I think you're on a hiding onto nothing with the particular "issue" you're highlighting with MMA. If you're facing an opponent of roughly equivalent skill level, you're not going to be able to steamroller them; you have to disengage from situations likely to put you at a disadvantage and engage again on more favourable terms. This creates the clash-retreat-clash you're talking about. Against a much weaker opponent, it's less likely that you'll feel you've lost control of the situation and wish to disengage. This isn't a habit, this is a necessity when facing a similarly well-trained foe.

    This is not to say that there are no genuine issues with MMA styles for self-defence. To highlight one concern with a common MMA strategy, if you shoot in and take someone down to avoid his punches, and then on the ground he pulls a knife, you're likely to be in trouble. On the other hand, in the real world the ground is often concrete, and taking people down hard has been known on occasion to drastically reduce their will or ability to fight.

    The problems with using MMA styles for self-defence are chiefly found with the ruleset the testing is done under. Unremarkably, the same is true of pretty much every art; unfortunately, many arts fail to test against what one would think the most basic requirement for self-defence, an opponent who's also trying to win.

    This is a terrible distinction. To hammer home just how grave I consider it, I'm going to embark on an ill-advised analogy.

    Two groups of people are being asked to advise on the best way to train a man for being a Formula One racing driver with limited resources. One group advocates that the man should take his ordinary road car out to a racetrack and drive it round as fast as possible. Now, this hardly captures the experience fully, as his road car is underpowered in comparison, has an automatic transmission instead of a manual transmission, and handles differently on the corners; but, at least he's driving. The second group claim that training on a road car will just instill bad habits, and that instead he should make a mock-up of a Formula One car's cockpit, sit in it, and make the motions he'd expect to make in a race.

    Now, some among the second group will, if pushed, admit that well, there are perhaps some minor flaws in their training, and maybe they should drive the road car occasionally as well. However, they then want the first group to legitimise their training in return by stating that driving a road car isn't a perfect solution either, and they should be more forthcoming on the bad habits that driving a road car will instill.

    Now, were you a member of the first group, how would you react to this? Any admission of the differences between driving the road car and driving a racing car in a race will be seen as a victory by the second group, a justification for continuing to advocate pretending to drive. How would you go about reasoning with them? You don't want to come to some happy insane place where everyone agrees that driving a road car is good, but pretending to drive is good too, and neither should be considered "best". You want to convince them that training people to race without giving them any driving experience in a real car is nonsense. But how?
    Sadly this will go over the heads of many Buj members.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  8. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2006 6:51pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I find an interesting analogy to be two groups of guys who want to train for small scale conflicts with guns, one group plays a paintball type of game, and the other says "OK, you come out from behind that building, then I'll come out from behind that wall, then I shoot you and you fall down." Then well do it again. Then we will do henka where I do a roll after coming out behind a wall.
  9. Wounded Ronin is offline
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    ...is THE PENETRATOR

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2006 9:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: German longsword, .45 ACP

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ha ha, here's another funny link. Note that this story is in a thread about "successful" self defense efforts.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=20254

    "When I was about 16 (8 years of training under my belt) I found myself in a foreign country. I went to a party with some of my friends at some youth club place, and I decided to leave early. I didnt have any money for a cab, and the only way I knew how to get home was via a path through a slightly wooded area. I felt pretty safe because the path was meant for people and bikers, and it was only in the woods for like an 8th of a mile.

    Right about mid-way someone grabbed me from behind, in a bearhug like grab. As I was being pulled into the woods I started screaming and tried frantically to wiggle free. As much training as I had, there really wasnt much I could do when being lifted off the ground. He put me down and shoved me against a tree, I stomped on his foot and tried to heatbutt back into his face.

    Then he leaned up against me with his body to hold me against the tree, he grabbed my hair and pulled my head back, and thats when I felt the knife against my throat. He told me to shut up and I stopped yelling....

    So many scenarios played out in my head about all the different things I could do to try to get away, try to disarm him. I was able to stay somewhat calm, and unfortunately, that is the only way that my martial arts training helped me. I was able to run through all the possible situations and realize that the only way for me to have a good chance of surviving, would be to stop fighting.

    And I did.... And I'm alive.

    I'm pretty sure that if I fought him he would have killed me..... or at least, tried.... For years I kept thinking that if only I had reacted before he lifted me off the ground.... maybe I could have gotten away.... but rather than second guess myself, and my training, I've come to the conclusion that I did the right thing, and that maybe without my training I would have completely panicked, and very likely gotten myself killed.

    So theres my story. I think im a survivor because I knew not to fight. And thats how my training helped me."
    "Yes, my training made me freeze up, and that's why I'm not dead."
    “nobody shoots anybody in the face unless you’re a hit man or a video gamer.” - Jack Thompson
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Th...%28attorney%29
  10. Plasma is online now
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    Heel Hook Hunter

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    Posted On:
    5/09/2006 9:16pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: Jiu Jitsu | Knife

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wounded Ronin
    Ha ha, here's another funny link. Note that this story is in a thread about "successful" self defense efforts.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...ad.php?t=20254



    "Yes, my training made me freeze up, and that's why I'm not dead."
    lol. ninjas.

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