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  1. Lane is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2006 2:36pm


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shinbushi
    I cannot believe that the guy who got me into aliveness posted that crap called ninpo and MMA(the link ove to E-budo).
    Why is a big Genbukan guy defending the Bujinkan against you, a Bujinkan 10th dan? Isn't that a little backwards?
    --
    L.
  2. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2006 4:08pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The poster of the article is also Genbukan
  3. Lane is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2006 6:07pm


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I went to go read the article after seeing this row. More of the "too deadly!" and "my koppojutsu would totally destroy muscle and bone." I'm wondering why he claims that the last part isn't allowed in MMA. I've never seen an MMA competitor disqualified for dealing too many damaging blows to his opponent. Hell, that guy usually wins the fight. I've seen knees kicked out, people in so much pain they've had to stop, fights called off because of blood, etc. Seems to me like koppojutsu would make a great striking program. In fact, I think a lot of koppojutsu is similar to some of the kali/silat striking I've done, so I know that one can train it in an alive manner.

    But still... I'm just surprised to see a Genbukaner defending the Bujinkan. I thought those guys got their rocks off by mocking the Bujinkan.
    --
    L.
  4. Shaolinz is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/04/2006 7:27pm


     Style: Muay Thai , BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How to be a Ninja (or close enough): http://www.totse.com/en/bad_ideas/ir...es/161683.html
  5. seattletcj is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 9:11pm


     Style: Bujinkan, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There were some...ok... points made on both forums, all 200 pages. I admit I didnt read them all. If I did I would be very ashamed of myself ! What a waste of time.
    Anyway....

    I'm not sure about the Map vs Bullshido thingie, and am not interested in entering the nerdtastic war, but what I have noticed on both sides is a lack of understanding of the potential weak areas that both systems have. As far as the BJK...how can anyone not see that taking 3 steps behind someone who is frozen in place, and then hitting them is absurd. And the MMA guys...Is it possible that clash retreat...clash retreat can create some bad habits?

    I dont remember eithor side admitting any flaws of their system, or even considering it.

    I mean, is it really that outragous what some of the ninpo guys are saying?
    I would ask them the same question...are the MMA guys really that wrong?

    Hahah I sound like a hippie, cant we all get along.
    Let me be clear...I am not a hippie.
  6. JonK is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 9:41pm


     Style: judo, wrestling, bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by seattletcj
    And the MMA guys...Is it possible that clash retreat...clash retreat can create some bad habits?
    I'm curious as to what you're saying by this - is it that MMA fighters don't press an advantage? I'm not attacking you, I'm just genuinely not understanding this part of your post.
  7. Lane is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 9:51pm


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, MMA isn't a system. It's a training methodology. It takes good systems and has one cross-train in them to receive the best at all ranges of fighting, such as BJJ, sambo or wrestling for the ground, judo and BJJ for takedowns and throws, and boxing and muay thai for striking. Some mixed martial artists even throw in arts like kali or silat for weapons work. The idea is that no system is complete and without flaws, so you supplement your training with other arts to fill the gaps. Any resulting flaw is not a flaw in the training system but an area in which the MMAist must consciously strive to improve.

    The Bujinkan does have an array of techniques at a variety of ranges; trained effectively, it probably wouldn't be a bad base. However, a number of the techniques are antiquated and irrelevant to modern-day applications (like all of the yoroi kumiuchi stuff). Plus, a good many Bujinkan schools spend a lot of time drilling things like the sword, which while fine as an end in itself, doesn't actually teach you how to fight.

    If one wants to learn how to fight, and do so effectively, the MMA methodology remains the best available, and is supported by plenty of empirical evidence.
    --
    L.
  8. seattletcj is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 10:07pm


     Style: Bujinkan, MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JonK
    I'm curious as to what you're saying by this - is it that MMA fighters don't press an advantage? I'm not attacking you, I'm just genuinely not understanding this part of your post.
    No, a good MMA fighter, or any fighter will press an advantage. But dont tell me you havnt seen clash retreat clash retreat. I guess it is more clear when you have two strong strikers put together, rather then when one or both have good takedown and ground skills.

    If you are trapped in a ring or cage and you want to pound someone and he wants to pound you, the mindset is to clash... and if you are getting pounded, retreat. Then clash again to try and win some ground and build some spirit. Someone usually retreats.

    Not always, but the point is...cant you even see the potential for bad habits forming? Especially in newbees. Not that the habit cant be overcome .

    Just like frozen uke syndrome can be overcome in the BJK.
  9. Lane is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 10:16pm


     Style: Muso Shinden Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The criticism has never been that the Booj has insurmountable flaws in training; the criticisms have largely been met with the "LALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" response.

    A compliant parter is necessary when first learning a technique. But if everything isn't tied together with progressive resistance and ultimately real-time pressure testing, it's worthless. Take, for instance, the judo throw harai goshi. I have practiced this throw in kata form many times. I know how to do it, but I've never had a chance to pull it off in randori, and so I'm very, very skeptical of my ability to pull it off.
    --
    L.
  10. Shaolinz is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/05/2006 10:34pm


     Style: Muay Thai , BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I must be lost... why would two fighters clashing and retreating cause a bad habit? Also how often do you actually see someone who is getting pounded get to "retreat"? Usually they end up on the ground getting wailed on alot like a street fight.

    Also, by retreat do you mean move out of range of punchs? I'm still not seeing how getting out of the way of something could possibly be a bad habit. Usually the retreat is because both fighters know the other will cause damage if they get tagged. I think many ninja's would be hesitant to attempt their techniques if they knew one mess up could mean them on the floor hearing birds.
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