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  1. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 7:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reading posts by bujinkan MAPers makes me glad I left. I don't want to be a part of anything in which the majority think like those guys. Real, objective, measureable, perfromance is little regarded while, "feeling" "flow" "use of space" "controling the energy" are given utmost priority. The subjective validation is the measurement of progress not performance. These guys fail to grasp the most simple concepts put forward to them. Not only do they fail to grasp aliveness even when shown a video of it, they fail to see the difference between resisting an opponent and standing there and allowing yourself to be beaten on. This is evidenced by the "My sensei threw me into the wall and cracked my ribs! ZOMG my training is hard!" Yeah I could probably break Fedor's ribs if he promised to stand there and take it. Beating on a guy who is standing there, putting up no defence is stupid, in fact it borders on bullying. They also fail to understand that arguments from authority are worthless, as evidenced by "ZOMG Nagato can kick ass that means the system works" Well, that doesn't have anything to do with how the majority can fight. They love the argument from authority becuase they love the authority. They love senseis and masters that tell them what's true. Yes, there is a near cult-like devotion to Hatsumi in some circles. They are impressed by stage fighting and coreographed kata as long as it comes from the right authroty figure. When I asked to see an example of bujinkan used in alive situation and saw a link to a video clip, I actually thought it might really be it. Instead it's the same old dead pattern stuff I have spent six years doing and watching. They fail to grasp that you can get away with anything under those conditions. That is one of the reasons why I left, I didn't want to be seen as one of those people.


    They also ignore the arguments put forward and attack stawmen such as:

    "You think sparring is a real fight"
    "You think you can beat up and mug shihan yadda yadda"

    Contrary to what some people say, there really are good and bad techniques, there are good and bad ways to train them. We are starting to enter a unique phase in the historyof martial arts, and that is evidnece based practice. No, "evidence" is not some letter by a guy in the army saying his ninjitsu helped keep him alive. You can't see what he did. It's not externally verifiable, it isn't worth ****. Again, you never see it. just like what Thornton says. You never see the real, alive fighting, next level, what your shitty partner compliant dead drills have finally led up to monkey style, real _ing _un, fang shen do, kuk sool won, TKD, Koala Bear Kungfu ninja technique. You are assured it exists, but nobody had ever actually seen it. The reason? It doesn't exist. Nobody gets down and fights like a monkey becuase it's fucking stupid and it doesnt' work.

    They tell me to go and find alive training, I tried to get alivness introduced into my dojo, there was zero enthusiasm for it. The instructor could not understand the concept and kept confusing aliveness for putting on gloves and beating on each other. It's not his fault, he has been training for a long time in his methods and I don't think he has seen how BJJ and MMA guys train. Now I'm not going to some wild goose chase for the alive bujinkan dojo. There are 5 people in the world doing that, as shinbushi said. Now bujinkan used to be progressive, it distained solo kata repetition in an age where kata was king but things are past that now. It hasn't kept up with the times and with the evidence. There are still guys running around saying they won't be taken to the ground, and if they do, nutgrab will fix it. I had the feeling that the bujinkan was insular while the martial arts world was evolving around them. Guys were talking about how great shihan blah-blah's stuff is when really, does it work is the first thign that matters. All other discussion is meaningless without that confirmation. It's like what has been said before, due to the evidence-based approach we know what works and what doesn't. People wan't to imagine that it's a matter of opinion, debate, feeling but it isn't. Either you can do your **** or you can't. And if you say you can, you need hard evidence, not some unverfiable testimony. The martial arts world continues to evolve and you get with it, adapt or you die. "Death" means arguing on MAP about feeling, spirits, chi, kukan and flow.
    Last edited by Virus; 4/27/2006 7:12pm at .
  2. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 7:40pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Virus, you should be happy that "you don't get it". If you did, you would be doomed to the same train of thought that the major offenders on MAP are guilty of.

    Enjoy the live, but sport oriented training.

    And if the guys at MAP are still reading this..............

    Everyone that is in line with the BJK's mantra of preserving BUDO really doesn't understand the Japanese common consensus about what is going on. The BJK has a horrible track record with the Japanese, and it is generally thought of as fake or exaggerated. This is unfortunate because one of the loudest arguments in favor of the BJK by its members is that it is training for 'combat' using Budo. The standard opinion that I have encountered from Japanese budoka ,that I know, that aren't part of the BJK, is that it is a joke that is being used to obtain money from foreigners.

    These are things that I have observed. I find that other training has been more in line with what I want and the BJK mentality is part of the largest contributing factors to the piss poor state of martial arts around the world.

    But feel free to dismiss what I have observed and experienced.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 7:46pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The anger phase comes next virus.
  4. BoardHitBack is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 7:47pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    They tell me to go and find alive training, I tried to get alivness introduced into my dojo, there was zero enthusiasm for it.
    I can't wait for the criticism to pour in

    "Why would you want to add anything to bujinkan? The arrogance of the man, its a complete system! New dimensions < old* ways, typical dumb westerner undervaluing the ancient* wisdom of the East and its ninja assassins."







    *Yeah, I know.
  5. Matsufubu is offline
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    To the Bat Pole!

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 8:07pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wonder how old those Bujinkan guys are, and what experience they have. A couple of them sounded quite objective and mature, but many more sounded like kids in a gang who think Japanese = authentic and mystical, and Nagato etc = God.
    Mr Politically Correct GIJoe6186:
    Fat people disgust me in every way imaginable. I was at Freindly's with my girl tonight and saw a bunch of fat fuckers. I felt sorry for the pavement they were killing and the people who had to see them. .
  6. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 8:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matsufubu
    I wonder how old those Bujinkan guys are, and what experience they have. A couple of them sounded quite objective and mature, but many more sounded like kids in a gang who think Japanese = authentic and mystical, and Nagato etc = God.
    Its pretty sad that many of them are older guys and they should be more open to free thought than they are. I'm pretty sure that Ben Cole is still living in Japan and he is fluent in Japanese and has been here for a long time.

    Their interpretation of what Budo is and what skills they are learning is different from other people. Not everyone is going to agree.

    The lack of aliveness in training is fine for them, okay, don't bother them with it. They believe the BJK to be authentic Koryu, let them. People make their own decisions/mistakes from their own choosing.

    They need to realize that martial arts contests are an old thing in Japan, even among Koryu budo. To talk **** about MMA because there are rules, it is slandering one of the biggest forms of quality control in all traditional martial arts dating back to ancient wrestling. To say that the martial art is battle tested gives you no real feed back, because a move works well in a single situation isn't as valuable as repeated pressure testing in a contest.
    Everyone on MAP wants to take the single point of the guy in SF serving in the Middle East, his BJK training is not all he has. The skills he learned from the Army and prior experience are more often utilized in his current situation than anything he learned from the BJK.
  7. Ke?poFist is offline
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    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 8:58pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    Its pretty sad that many of them are older guys and they should be more open to free thought than they are. I'm pretty sure that Ben Cole is still living in Japan and he is fluent in Japanese and has been here for a long time.

    Their interpretation of what Budo is and what skills they are learning is different from other people. Not everyone is going to agree.

    The lack of aliveness in training is fine for them, okay, don't bother them with it. They believe the BJK to be authentic Koryu, let them. People make their own decisions/mistakes from their own choosing.

    They need to realize that martial arts contests are an old thing in Japan, even among Koryu budo. To talk **** about MMA because there are rules, it is slandering one of the biggest forms of quality control in all traditional martial arts dating back to ancient wrestling. To say that the martial art is battle tested gives you no real feed back, because a move works well in a single situation isn't as valuable as repeated pressure testing in a contest.
    Everyone on MAP wants to take the single point of the guy in SF serving in the Middle East, his BJK training is not all he has. The skills he learned from the Army and prior experience are more often utilized in his current situation than anything he learned from the BJK.
    this is why I love this site. Mongo whether you realize it or not you just helped me understand so much more about Chinese and Japanese TMA's and how they've been bastardized by modern Americans and Martial arts schools. It's not even like I didn't know it, but seeing you put it out here in black and white just put all the pieces togethor.
  8. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 9:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think I'm done with that thread on MAP, there's only so much sheer delusion, sensei worship and uncritical thinking one can take.

    I'd like to hear more about what the other Japanese Koryu and Gendai martial artists think of hatsumi and the bujinkan. It always kind of botherd me that there was mostly westerners in Japan. Nothing wrong with that inherently but it's like he's selling a samurai LARP holiday for westerners.
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 10:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I came very close but I resisted the urge to post on MAP.

    Re: The guy in the army. Good for him but there are and have been thousands of soldiers surviving the exact same stuff and much worse who had NO BJK training.

    The logic that this proved something is so flawed. If he had been killed would that have meant BJK trianing sucks.
  10. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    4/27/2006 10:10pm


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Reading those posts was enough to make me send those videos on aliveness to everyone I train with who's email address I have. Maybe they wont get it, but at least I can say they watched it.
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